This is a Tyra show video about biracial women who hate one side of their racial composition or the other.
Most biracial people find themselves struggling with identity. What am I? Black, White, Hispanic? And more often than not, they also get caught up in families, especially their grandparents, rejecting them for being biracial or having a tinge of the other race. Society also does this to them. I remember when Vanessa Williams became the first woman of African American descent to be crowned Miss America, most Black folks said she did not represent them. She wasn’t Black enough.
This video brings out some really interesting issues about multiracial identity, intra-group struggles and complexion issues. Having watched the video, do you think society plays a big role in pushing us to hate who we really are? Should we excuse these biracial women’s hatred for hating the “other side”?
Tags: asian women dating, interracial dating, interracial dating sites
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Comment by Salsassin on 15 December 2008:
Can’t say I have been impressed with Tyra’s “racial” series. She feeds on the stereotypes and it’s almost like she is trying to be the Jerry Springer of Racialism. Like that one where she had Black people with obviously predominant European ancestry trying to claim they were of pure African ancestry. I’m mixed, but come on. Guess the race? The woman is an idiot. People can be of mixed ancestry. Different regions. But they are not races. And lots of these kids are confused and need good advice. These are complex issues. And Tyra’s butcher job of the issues is terrible.
Comment by cnn76 on 16 December 2008:
I agree she is kinda corny.
Comment by caribqueen81 on 16 December 2008:
There is so much contempt between different asian groups, hispanic groups, and blacks with each other over minute differences.
Whether you are Chinese or Japanese, you better believe the masses just see “Asian” and don’t care what your specific culture might be.
Whether you are Dominican or Panamanian, you better believe the masses just see a “Hispanic”.
Whether you are dark skinned black, brown skinned black, or light skinned black, you better believe the masses just see a “Negro”.
So whats the point of fighting amongst yourselves?
Being from the Caribbean, when I came here as a little girl, I used to wish I was white like the people I watched on TV.
Now as a grown woman, I am proud of not only my race, but also my heritage.
My mother told me a long time ago, be happy with who you are, because whether you were white, brown, yellow, etc., people would still find a way to hate you.
Here’s a question. Do white people fight amongst themseleves about who’s the better “breed”?
I guess for them it’s just about class and money.
Comment by Salsassin on 16 December 2008:
Not necessarily. One group’s perception of what is “White”, “Black”, “Asian”, “Mixed” whatever might not be anothers. In one culture you might be seen as Black, in another you wouldn’t. The Masses vary by region. And yes, White racialists fight over these stupid nuances as well.
Comment by starthai on 16 December 2008:
I agree with everything you just stated Salssasin. On a different note I find it mighty strange how people of my culture act oblivious to the advantages with being a lighter skin black, whether it stemmed from another era, it still remains today, sadly. I 100% agree with the darker skin sista on the video. Also, I’ve always been aware of the drama within other ethnicities, it has always been downplayed. People have to learn to own their own behavior and then I think it will get better.
Comment by mimi on 17 December 2008:
I feel what the lighter skinned girls feel, you darkskinned girls(as beautiful as your skin may be) can be so mean. why harbor ill feelings for me when the fact that things are the way they are has nothing to do with me? I don’t support that, it has nothing to do with me. I’m not stuck up, just like you, I’m human and BLACK. I always wanted darker skin, at least, you’ve always been accepted as black. I don’t like being called a “yellowbone” you want that? “house n*gger” you want that? getting denied that it’s your ability and who you are as a person that’s made you, but rather your skin? whatever, I know there are some stuck up girls with lighter skin(example:my sister) but if she was dark skinned she’d be the same person. I mean, not like I dont experience what you feel, cause IM BLACK TOO. I’ve been hated so bad by some people that I’ve never wronged in anyway, cause of my skin and hair? I’m the sweetest person, but why cant you see that at the end of the day we are both black, why so much emphasis on shade?
Comment by Salsassin on 17 December 2008:
There are actually advantages to being dark skinned, light skinned, etc depending on context. Look at my picture. Would you even have a clue that I was mixed? My phenotype is European. No one would ever guess that I have African or Indigenous ancestry. Shoot, they even have trouble believing Hispanic ancestry. I look straight up Germanic. If I was darker I wouldn’t have had a ton of issues growing up. I had to learn to love myself. I understand perfectly where Mimi is coming from. Many lighter skinned Blacks, are automatically assumed to have an attitude, or to have privileges. So they get discriminated by their own community. And many times, their other facial characteristics are enough to label them as Black so they get discriminated from the other side as well. Just consider this, look at this picture and tell me if lighter skinned women will always have the advantage because they are lighter.
http://i34.tinypic.com/qqu6vn.jpg
Blame it on the media. Women of all complexions are beautiful. Women of all complexions can be ugly as well. People can have hang ups about skin color, but that is not on you, that is on them. Now some people will place the blame on their skin color, hair type, whatever, and never realize they just might have a facial type that is not appealing to the group they are interested in.
And Dark skinned sisters get discriminated as well. All you have to do is look at the media and see who is on most of the posters, or who Black men tend to date. But it really isn’t lighter skinned sisters reaping the benefits as much as the medium toned, mohagony/caramel toned ladies who get the most attention with the least amount of finger pointing. Go look at most media and see how many are light skinned, dark skinned and medium toned.
So you have dark skinned sisters, wishing they were lighter, and light skinned sisters wishing they were darker. In fact, many light skinned sisters go into the militant, “I am Blacker than thou” syndrome. You know the ones I am talking about, wearing Dashikis, Talking about mother Africa all the time, etc. That is a defense mechanism from not being accepted since childhood as a member of their own community. They are subconsciously trying to prove loyalty to the group. I know a little bit about that as I did the same thing as a kid, trying to out Latino everybody because people didn’t automatically see me as a part of the group. Many people of mixed ancestry are forced to pick sides because of this dichotomy. And while the common belief has been that the Black side or other Non White side has usually been more accepting, as White communities have become more embracing, many biracial children are finding that although the Black side claims them more as their own than the White side, on many occasions, the White side might harass them less.
So you have some light skinned biracials following the path of the militant light skinned sisters, you have others identifying more with the White side as a lesser of two evils, and finally you have some who want to reform old ethnocultural groups like the Mulattos. Just go to Mulatto.org and you will see what I m talking about.
A fourth option has arisen in the states. A lot of biracial children are slowly either migrating to more accepting mainstream communities that are multicultural, or they are affiliating themselves with organizations for biracial/multiracial/interracial people. Not just Black and White, but any mix. Because there, no matter if you are Black, White, Mixed or Hapa, you have common ground. And actually, dark skinned sisters do a lot better in these communities as well as there beauty tends to be more appreciated. When people of other groups go interracial (I hate the term race, but I will use it to define differences in phenotype between ethnicities, no matter how innacurate) they tend to be much more appreciative of the whole spectrum, without the colorism that exists within the Black community.
Of course there is even a fifth option. Many people who are not appreciated here migrate to lands, learn the languages, and indigenize in other countries where there beauty is much more appreciated. Places like Brazil, or other places where admixture has been even and thus all groups tend to be more accepting without the antagonism.
Colorism exists in many communities around the world, but I have never seen the level of interracial antagonism, across all class lines, that you see in the US. And the vindictiveness intraracially is pretty bad as well. In my country, Peru, the biggest problem is classism as a perpetuation of racism. As there is less class mobility, the upper classes still tend to be strongly Eurasian (note that I didn’t say European, only) while the lower classes tend to have all ancestries and don’t discriminate because of it. But Mestizaje is still a part of the process and you see people of noticeable Indigenous and African ancestries in the upper echelons as a minority. But a fully integrated one. Once you are in the class, you are fully accepted and don’t live separate lives, different communities etc.
OK, I went on a tangent.
Ultimately, the dichotomy of Black and White introduced in Jim Crow (believe it or not, one droppism and what not was not a part of slavery) has caused a lot of these antagonisms. Forcing people to pick sides.
Oh, read my discussion I started yesterday over at the Tyra show after looking at this video:
http://community.tyrashow.com/group/guessmyrace/forum/topics/seriously-you-all-beleive-in
Comment by honeycoatedj on 17 December 2008:
I love Tyra, but i have to admit, the show was a mess. I don’t know what she was trying to convey to the world ,but, it did more damaged to the black race than anything. I think the whole thing is retarded. A lot of Afro-americans hate themselves. I don’t think, knowly. You have Black men hating black women and black women hating black men. If one is lighter than the other they are upset, if you hair is less kinky they are upset, i can go on an on. They really need a reality check and learn to love themselves. Know that being afro-american is a beautiful thing.
The problem is, no one wants to be black or identified as being black For example “Hispanic” you have black hispanics like Panamain,Honduras, Dominicans etc these cultures would cut off there right hand to say that they are black. Call me crazy but when did being hispanic became a race. You have your white hispanic and you have your black hispanics. My mom is an Afro-american women and my dad’s family is from the Dominican Republic and i can a sure you he was a black man who spoke spanish.
People need to stop it and embrace that we all look different. If you have a mixed background be happy and celebrate. In all races and cultures people did great things to contribute to society. We need to realize, beause the lack of love we have for each other is part of the reason why the world is the way it is now.
Comment by hndsmbrian on 17 December 2008:
I am from the Dallas, Tx area and have seen over the past 10 yrs, mixed race people moving into and being accepted into some of the more affluent suburbs of Dallas. ie Frisco, Plano, McKinney. I am white. My great grandmother came here from Germany. The average person likes someone because they have preferences not because of their race. The media does try to tell people what is beautiful. We all know that seeing someone on TV or in a magazine ad is probably not what that person looks like in the morning when they get out of bed. Many white girls are tanning and many darker skin black girls are putting make-up to lighten the skin. It is obvious that most guys(most, not all) like the caramel skin whether the girl is black or white does not matter. When dating skin color is a preference. Being real, we all know that the first attraction is physical and if we are not attracted to someone physically the chances of ever getting to know the person is small. When we go to buy a new car we have preferences on what we want. If red is our favorite color we are not going to buy a blue car but if the blue car has more features that we like other than the skin color then we might consider but unlikely.
Fighting between races is the most idiotic thing that can be done. White people don’t fight or seperate over color but class(monitary). Which is stupid too but that is the way it is. So when all become educated and realize we are all people of God some good things will start to happen. We don’t need to judge people on who they choose to date or hang out with because that is their right and preference. I have a preference of nice smooth caramel colored skin but I don’t care if the girl is white, black, mexican ect. as long as it meets my preference. I do not even look at race when it comes to people.
I am a teacher and coach. I try to teach my kids that racism and prejudice are two different things. I tell them that I am prejudice against idiots, and that being an idiot does not relate to race but only the person themselves.
So to the many interracial daters and spouses congratulations you have crossed the line for the better but as we know it will not be easy. So good luck.
Comment by starthai on 17 December 2008:
Just for the record, from reading some of the post, I want to mention I love my dark skin and most of my girlfriends are dark skin too and love their skin as well, trust me the conversation has come up amongst us. I also don’t wear makeup, because I don’t need to and neither do any of my girlfriends. Whether some lighter skin blacks play on their advantages or try and blame darker skin blacks for not feeling black enough( because this do exist) I still respect anyone with a good character and embrace my fellow sistas as a whole. I don’t plan on being absent minded to the facts on disadvantages or advantages with skin shade anytime soon either, knowledge is power and when someone knows better they do better. Mimi you seem like you are in a lot of pain and I’m sorry for that, but as a dark skinned sista myself I’m tired of hearing lighter skin blacks blame their insecurities on darker skin blacks and constantly blaming darker skin of being jealous( mainly amongst the women) when in actuality it may be the other way around. Now these dark skinned females that you came across that were supposedly mean to you may just not be decent people, they come in every shade. To be honest all my girlfriends are dark skinned females(except one she’s more of a pecan color) and when we had this same conversation, we all admitted except one, that we didn’t like our skin as children for obvious societal reasons, but now as 20 something aged women we see it for what it is and love our skin tones, needless to say there are dark skinned women with long hair and nice hair textures as well. Every black person does not have the same hair texture either. I agree with the dark skin sista on the video, that stated in the media she can’t identify with anyone, because there is no representation of her type. Many younger dark skinned females become insecure about their skin shade due to that fact, nothing else. Even though I agree with her observations I have my own take, the more rare something is the more value it seems to have, so I’m not so bothered by it. I wouldn’t change the way I look to save my life.
Comment by pisceschica on 17 December 2008:
I was indifferent to tyra before she started her show and I don’t care for her. As someone stated she just perpetuates stereotypes about blacks more specifically black women. I dont think she or her show does anything for black women but further degrades them the way that society already is. Tyra is great for fashion and makeup tips but she at 34/35 should be more advanced in her topics and interviewing skills. She talks so much about self esteem and being yourself but ever day she has on an overprocessed blonde wig.
Comment by Salsassin on 17 December 2008:
honeycoatedj, you make a big assumption. You assume races are a factual reality. Black, White, etc. where Eurocentric creations to begin with. I assure you Africans weren’t going around calling themselves Black. Many Afrodescent people do not like the label Black. So why should Afro-latinas of Panamanian, Dominican, or whatever have to identify as Black just because you choose to do so? Some do, some don’t. That is their choice. The fact of the matter is Afrodescent people in Latin America are much more mixed than Afro Americans and there is no concept of one droppism. So Many people of Afrodescent identify more with a larger group that is mixed in amny degrees, not just an African/Black one. There is nothing wrong with the Black identity, but it is not for everyone, nor is it some type of biological reality they are denying. If they denied they had African ancestry, that would be different. For many, Black is synonymous with African American. And Negro just means dark skinned. So if you are of a medium complexion they won’t use it. Different perceptions in different cultures.
Comment by caribqueen81 on 17 December 2008:
While we are on the subject of Latino’s who have african blood…
I share honeycoated’s sentiment about black hispanics but I am able to see the other side of the arguement.
For example, my roots are in the West Indies, but mostly in Haiti, with some Dominican and Jamaican.
My grandfather (mother’s father) is considered a mulatto. his father was French(white), and half Haitian (black), and his mother was half German (white) and half dominican (black)/ So grandfather and all his siblings are fair skinned with “suave” hair and very european features. But he grew up in Haiti which is a black nation. Though he was lighter than most, he considered himself a black man. This is due to his environment. Haitian very much embrace their culture as a people who are for the most part direct descendants of Africans.
Now, on the other side of the Island you have the Dominican Republic. Many domincans who are (look black) do not consider themselves black, and I can understand the sentiment to a degree.
La Republica Dominicana is far more mixed as a whole than Haiti. Many Dominicans, even the dark ones have mix in them. But what I find interesting is that many of them will deny their black roots.
I understand that they identify with their culture (Hispanic) more than their race. In Latin America, the culture is proud. Being Latino is what is important above color; however, how can some of them boldly deny their roots?
I’m not saying they have to claim African American because they aren’t. Technically, neither am I. But still, the vehement denial of their blackness is appalling.
I’d like to go on and say that it’s NOT just Dominicans. Other Black Latino’s do it too.
Interestingly enough, in some Latin American cultures, they blacks accept their “blackness” or “Africaness”.
For example, black Cubans. Black Cubans not only are aware of their ancestry, but they embrace it…invite it. That is likely due to the differences in their nations history than a country like the DR. In Cuba, the blacks were segregated for a far longer period of time. Mixing of the races wasn’t as prevalent as it was in the DR, etc. All those historical constructs (and many more than I am leaving out…Rafael Trujillo comes to mind) have led blacks from one latin nation to one idea of racial/ethnic identify and led another to a totally different idea.
Again, I used the DR and Cuba as example. Other nations are not exempt.
Sorry if I’ve rambled…I should have been asleep an hour ago.
PS- I want to say that I love Latino’s. No problem with my Hispanic people. I date the men too.
Comment by caribqueen81 on 17 December 2008:
Jesus! I just proof read my post after I posted it.
It’s full of words that I didn’t spell correctly and run on sentences.
A big “My Bad” to everyone.
Comment by Salsassin on 18 December 2008:
Since when does Dominican automatically mean Black?
Here is a small reality check. In a study of Diabetes in the DR, The people with Diabetes tested on average mtDNA: 64% African, 22% Native American and 14% European. In the Non Diabetic population it was 51.5% Native American, 35.5% African and 9% European. In contrast, Cuba tested mtDNA 45% African, 22% European and 33% Native American. And if you really want to pull contrasts, the MOST mixed African American population, in Seattle Washington, has 35% European and 65% African. The national average is around 15-20% European.
The last census the DR ever did on self identification, 16% as White, 11% as Black and 73% identified as Mulato. A person of mixed African and European ancestry. So tell me again how they denied their African ancestry? If anything, the denial was of the indigenous side. In contrast, Cuba identified 65.1% White, 24.8 Mulato/Mestizo and 10.1% Black. So tell me again how Cubans identify more with their African side than Dominicans? Cubans may have a stronger African culture. Bt not necessarily the identity. And the DR does have many African descent traditions that are recognized by all. They just don’t see themselves in one droppist terminologies. When Dessalines became the dictator of Haiti, he rewrote Toussaint’s constitution and stated that ALL Haitians (including the Polish and German deserters who switched sides) where officially Black. Recall that it was Dessalines who led the massacre of mulatos during the War of Knives in Haiti. Also recall that Haiti invaded the Dominican side and soldiers did pillage and rape many people. So there is a bit of historic xenophobia with the term Black as referencing Haitians. But not with African ancestry per se. And much like many African Americans will downplay their European ancestry as product of slavemaster raping (a historical exaggeration as all offspring did not come from rape, marriages did occur, and, in fact, 40% of the European ancestry in African Americans comes from Eurodescent women, not men), Many Dominicans downplay the African part of their ancestry because of the exaggerated importance of those rapes long ago. These tensions would lead to abuses and retaliation such as that of Trujillo who committed his own atrocities. Dessalines and Trujillo where two sides of the same coin.
And again, who defines what is Black looking? A culture. What to your eyes, may be Black looking, to others may not.
You have provided no evidence whatsoever that Dominicans deny their African ancestry. Is there colorism? Sure. No worse than inside the African American community. Or Jamaica for that matter. Dominicans are not the ones that are putting harsh bleaches on their faces to look like brownings. I have seen the horror stories in Jamaica.
I think the DR gets a bad rap unjustly.
Comment by Salsassin on 18 December 2008:
Let me give you an actual Dominican perspective on why many today see themselves as Native:
I took a Bio-geographical DNA test, one that gives percentages of mixture. I tested positive for all three, except that my Indian American Markers were so high that it implied that my ancestors were “pure” up to 5 generations ago. Not bad for a supposedly extinct people!
I actually took the test three times because at first I was not at all convinced that such a thing was possible.
On my first test which was called the 2.0 DNA print test, my percentages were 29% Indian American, 39% African and 32% Caucasian. It was this first test that confirmed for me what my grandmother always said about our families’ descent. She claimed that her grandmother and all the people of the place I come from in the DR were pure Indians. So since I had 29% Indian that means my mother would have perhaps twice as much and so on.
But then I took an updated version of the test, 2.5, which goes deeper into the genome and this one revealed that I was 42 percent Indian.
One thing though, I think that as important as the tests are, they are also a bit misleading. I think that Identity is more about culture than genes. The reason why I have always identified with Indian is because of the campesino culture, which is very Indian in the DR.
At the end of these tests I am still as Indian as I was at birth. The thing is does confirm however is that our history in the Caribbean must be re-written. That the Taino became extinct 30 years after contact with the Spanish is just about the biggest myth ever created and we in the Caribbean bought that side of the story, hook line and sinker!
Two of the biggest if not the biggest opponents of Taino survival are Anthony Stevens Arroyo who wrote “Cave of the Jaguar” and Carlos Andujar ex president of The Museo del hombre Dominicano have in the last two weeks made very supportive statements (actually changed their tunes) regarding Taino survival.
In most of the forums where there are these “incredulous” people, most of them are either not informed, or non-academic. I do think that they have the right to voice out their Afro-centric sentiments after all that is also a reality in the DR and the Caribbean. They only fail when they become ultra afro-centric and then want everyone else to see what they believe. The fact is that there are three heritages in the DR and because of this we will always have four identities:
(1) There will always be people who identify with the Spanish
(2) There will always be people who identify with the African
(3) There will always be people who identify with the Indian
(4) And last but not least, there will always be people that identify with all three.
My point is that they are all equally valid
One thing, you would never find an indigenista denying African heritage. It just makes no sense.
This thing with “color indio” was actually enforced during Trujillo’s time, but people identified with this way before. In fact in comes from the colonial era. During Trujillo’s time there were independent studies done on the ABO blood groups by Jose de Jesus Alvarez. He demonstrated that there is an abundance of type O positive blood in the DR, something like 70 percent. Why is this number important? Because type O positive is found only at around 35 percent in Caucasian populations and 4 percent in African populations. So if you have an equal mix of African and Caucasian Type O positive can never exceed 40 percent. That said, Indian Americans, particularly the ones from South America are universally 100 percent Type O Positive. Demonstrating that in the DR there is a substantial other, which of course is Indian.
Many scholars in the past have pointed out this study as being flawed and accused Mr. Alvarez of hidden agendas (Trujillo’s?). In fact just a few years ago I was at a conference where one of the speakers accused him of being a racist (this study was done in 1948)! DNA has proven that Mr. Jesus Alvarez was right all along.
I wonder what people will do with this information. Are we a people unable or unwilling to see the truth? Only time will tell. But for those of us who identify our Taino Indian ancestors, these studies only showed that we were right all along. We were not delusional, racist, etc. We were simply stating obvious facts. Like one woman from Cuba said to me once ” Yeah they came to our village in Yateras and did all these tests on us, they measured our heads, looked at our teeth and at the end told us what we already knew, that we are Indian”.
Now the use of the “Indio” color to describe Dominicans has nothing to do with Indian American identification. These terms were used by the Trujillo government to distinguish Dominicans from Haitians. Haitians were Negros, so the government focused on the other side and called themselves Indios to distinguish. One thing is certain; for those of us who have a tendency to identify with Indian over anything else. I argue that this is due to us having a very real biological, cultural and linguistic connection to our Indigenous ancestors. The terms African, Spanish, Mulato disconnect us from our homelands, rendering us almost immigrants in our homelands.
It is the Indian that connects us to our lands and we continue to be Indigenous to Quisqueya.
You have to understand that the African and the Spanish are considered the norm. It is the Indian genetic component that is always in question. If you begin to ask a hypothetical question: Are there substantial Indian American genes in the DR? The Answer is Yes. To look for Spanish or African is absurd because we ALL know that its there. Do you realize that up to a short time ago many academics erroneously claimed that the reason why some Dominicans looked Indian was because if you mix black and white in time you get something that looks somewhat Indian! This was an actual train of thought among many academics in the Caribbean. As for the statistics: In the last 30 years there has been a push to Africanize Dominican Identity. So it’s not suspiring that many more identify with negritude. Most of those involved in what I call ultra afro-centric ideals were adamant in making sure that it was African or nothing at all. The indigenistas in our country have never said there were no Africans or African Influence, only that there is Taino as well. The Afrocentrics take rather unusual stance and claim that if one says INDIAN he is automatically denying Africans. I can’t see the reasoning in this.
I can show you pictures of DR’s that look like they stepped out of the Amazon!
It’s about culture. When one studies the Classic Taino Material culture of the islands, everything from Hamacas, to Casabe, weaving baskets to slash and burn farming down to how, when and where Indian crops are to be planted, bohios, etc and you compare that with the campesino culture of the ciabo for example, its easy to see why Dominicans have strong connection to an Indian past. My problem lies with certain individuals who say the following:
(1) There are no Indian genes only Indian cultures left (and very little of it)
(2) When the genetics proves the above statement to be untrue, then the counter argument is- Yes there are genes but no Indian culture.
As if you can have a strong genetic contribution to population and somehow not pass on ideas, culture, beliefs, etc.
The fact that we have at least 800 Taino words that persist in our Spanish today is remarkable, where else in the history of the world have an “extinct people” influenced a culture as much as the Taino?
Since I was very, very young I have identified with Indian. Somehow for me it boils down to this: If you mixed Africans and Spanish anywhere else in the world and giving rise to Mulato people, would these people be Quisqueyans and Boricuas or Cubans? Of course not. What makes us a unique people is that we have customs (the above mentioned), beliefs (ciguapas, misterios, opias, etc) linguistic traits that are indigenous only to the Caribbean, rendering us a unique people. If as if by magic we can subtract everything that is Taino from Caribbean culture, would we still be the same Dominicans? One can argue that if you subtract any portion of our multi-ancestries we would not be the same, but one thing is certain, as long as the Taino is there, we will always be indigenous to the Caribbean and not Dominicans by chance.
As for claims of self-hate in the Dominican Republic, I found the line of reasoning to be rather laughable that Dominican women straighten their hair to deny their negritude.
Hair straightening with chemicals began in the 50’s and officially in the 70’s by Revlon. Before that hair straightening was done with hot comes, and this began in the late 1880’s. Now check out these excerpts:
“So much so that the national complexion of skin and general physiognomic traits may well be described as being alight brown, approaching the copper color of the North American aborigines, straight black hair in the case of the females, glossy and in luxurious profusion and a combination of features resulting from about an equal blending of the African, Caucasian and -Indian physiognomies. The very visible traits of the latter would seem to indicate, although we are not aware of the existence of any other evidence of it, that the aboriginal race instead of having been entirely exterminated, had been particularly amalgamated.” In “The Dominican Republic in the Island of St. Domigue” by S. A. Kendall, page 243, 1849
“The “pure” race wholly died in (Hispaniola) at the latter end of the “last” century; but their characteristic features and luxuriant hair, are still to be traced among their descendants, from intercourse with Europeans, Africans and colored people. These are still called Indios.” In Harper’s statistical gazetteer of the world / by J. Calvin Smith; Illustrated by seven maps. Publication date: 1855.Collection: Making of America Books
In other words, Dominican women were known for their hair long before there were any hair straightening techniques. That said, why do so many women in the DR straighten their hair? First off, not ALL DR women do. Some do, some don’t. Second its not about denial of race is about aesthetics. More women straighten their hair in Africa than in the DR, are they too trying to deny being black? Also white women dye their hair blond, and I assure you that more of them are using peroxide to dye their hair than DR women using lye to straighten theirs. So what are these white women denying? NOTHING! It’s all about people trying to look better in their own eyes. When a Japanese man perms his hair curly or makes an dreadlock, he is simply making a fashion statement, not a racial one.
All these articles are an attempt by Ultra-Afrocentric intellectuals to force people into their own points of view.
I would never suggest that all Dominicans with straight hair are Indian. Indian, Black or white are matters of culture. WE as a tripartite people will always either identify with one or all of our heritages.
This argument is weak. If Dominicans don’t identify with their African roots as we should its because we have very few African Icons that survived during slavery. Other than Music and religiosity (two strong vehicles for “escaping” the reality of slavery) There is less material culture. Once Dominicans can pinpoint where are African descendants came from, perhaps we can then investigate that part of ourselves. To say that Dominican women are denying their negritude because of the hair thing, begs for another question, if the women straighten their hair to deny their negritude, what do the men do? Or is it just the women!
Sincerely,
Jorge Estebez
Comment by Salsassin on 18 December 2008:
And then you have the perspective of many Garinagu. People with substantial African Ancestry.
In Honduras, Garinagu are average 76% African, 20% Indigenous and 4% European. On St Vincent they are 40% African, 38% Indigenous and 16% European.
Yet while many African Americans see them just as African, many of them do not see themselves in that light.
Quote:
Our ancestors are Africans, Carib and Arawak and yes the African influence is present in our culture and our physical appearance, but we are not Africans we are Garifuna. My race is Garifuna, the Garifuna race is from St. Vincent not Africa. Yes I have African heritage. I am not denying my African hertiage, but I am not an African nor does anybody in my family consider themselves an African, we are Garinagu. We speak Garifuna not African and Garifuna is basically an Amerindian language. In Belize we are considered an Indigenous group.
We are known also as the Black Caribs, who are the Caribs?? They are Indians. The Black comes from the African factor that our skin comes out Black. Now I don’t really care if someone doesn’t acknowledge what they are mixed with. If Malaika considers herself African that is her deal. I am a Garifuna, I have African in me and have African hertiage, but I am not an African. There may be Garinagu out there that consider themselves African, but I haven’t encountered that person yet. And if that is the case hey, we Garinagu should forget our language and start speaking in Swahili, stop dancing Punta, and throw our culture away, forget our name, and call ourselves African just to make everyone else happy. I will not now or ever do that, and for those wondering if I consider myself Black, yes I do.
Where the Garinagu where before 1635? They were in St. Vincent as the Red Caribs. The Africans came and mixed with the original Garifuna making us. The Carib and Arawak element can be seen in the musical styles of the Abeimahani and Arumahani which are song acapella, another Amerindian factor is our language, our language is basically Arawak. Of course the African is present in the way we look, (even though the Indigenous is present in many Garinagu), our music and our dance, the Uraga which are stroies as well as the Ananci stories with Call-and-response songs, for the ninth-night wake(beluria) and our religion is a mix of both, but with a heavy African influence. But the Garifuna was in St. Vincent before the Africans came. I recommend the book Sojourners of the Caribbean by Nancy Gonzales this explains this matter in great depth.
I asked my uncle if we were Africans and he said we are Arawaks and Caribs that mixed with Africans, but that we don’t come from Africa. We come from America and Africans mixed with us.
I know and acknowledge the African in me and the African influence in my culture, but I also acknowledge the Carib and Arawak, like James Lovell ( a famous Garifuna singer) said, ” When someone says I am a Garifuna they know and recognize that they have Carib, Arawak, and West African blood running through their veins. Our flag has the colors Yellow, White and Black, which means the following: Yellow= the color of our ancestors; White= the peace that in which our people live; Black= The color of our people in other words the African factor.
Many Garinagu like me know we have African heritage and that we are black, but we are Caribs, nibuganyan. The problem is that many of us are very much into our own community because we are not understood, and because isolation is how we survived. Now times have changed but much hasn’t, but I do feel we need to recognize the African factor, while knowing we are Caribs. The truth is that some our ancestors deny having roots in Africa, but we the younger generation know that this is impossible, this was also done because the older Garifuna in St. Vincent (And some still do)looked down on other Blacks for being slaves and didn’t want to be associated with them. Traces of this can still be found in Central America, where Creoles may call a Garifuna a derrogatory name, and a Garifuna will say that at least he has a culture of his own and wasn’t a slave.
Now things are changing and many of us now we have African, but we can’t forget we are Caribs. Calling ourselves just Africans in my view is just forgeting something my ancestors gave their life for, which is us having the right to know we are Caribs too. Garifuna is a seperate from all other races, being black doesn’t magically make you a Garifuna, you have to have the African factor and be a Carib too. Seremein
Umalali Niyunagu
Comment by stlrapper on 18 December 2008:
generally speaking, i think there are alot of ill informed assumptions made when one feels slighted by another and this perpetuates ignorance; for example- i had a guy tell me that he now understands why i never showed any interest in him since he heard that i only like white men, when truth of the matter is he was obnoxious, cocky, and tried too hard so his insecurity was a big turn-off, not to mention the whole “i heard” thing is so juvenile, especially when what he heard was untrue yet he never took the time to simply ask me before coming to an ill informed conclusion then having the nerve to approach me with that non-sense…..its a derivative of what i call the bag-man syndrome which can be eliminated by truly treating each person and situation individually without taking into account past situations with prior ppl… i have always been inquisitive by nature so it amazes me that so many ppl do not try asking someone what is up…because until you ask, you really do not know
Comment by Phoenix Fly on 18 December 2008:
Wow….people! It’s getting heated!
From my own experience and in every avenues of my life race has been an issue. I’m dark skin and my mother is fair skin, my great grandfather was Irish on my mothers side and on my fathers side my great grandfather was a very dark skin Haitian. From the time my mother enrolled me in school and it was thought that I was adopted, when I was passed over for jobs or told I didn’t look the part, was told I wasn’t pretty, and when my children where born….the surprised and relieved faces of the paternal grandparent, to see a light skin grandchild or times I saw cute little dark skin baby, who was pushed to the side in a room with my light skin child…The surprised faces of potential employers, once I came to their offices- my name didn’t match my face, I wasn’t Shaqueta. - I could go on for days…..race has been a main topic. I read all the comment and was really impressed with all the comment and view points.
My point would have to be the issue of color, not really race, even though that is the source of the problem. You can look at the numbers, the statistics and roll it around,send it to outer space and squash it into a billion pieces. If you are a darker complexion (its not a matter of your cultural back round or race) you are thought of in a negative light and of course would be at a disadvantage.
Black cats, dark alley ways, shadowy figures,darkness,the dark continent, Dark water, dark meat, a black jacket,black heart, dark comedy, black pits, black people….when you think of the word BLACK; the things that swirl in you head are all negative.I typed in the word “dark” (nothing showed up for the word black) I got my spell check’s Theasour; I got the words dim, shadowy, murky, gloom, sinister, mysterious, threatening, evil, depressing, bleak, sad,unhappy, troubled, not trusting; and when I typed in the words “light” and “white”, I got words like, fair, glow, bright, luminous, weightless, gentle, fluffy, day light, radiance, graceful, sunlit, sunny, joyful, cheerful happy, easy going, manageable, entertaining, ignite, playful (there was allot more words)….But in thinking of yourself which word would you like to be associated with? And so if you are dark skin you would be considered to be…what? Doesn’t take a rocket scientist.
As young children we are taught these words and their meanings are carried with us through out our lives. This is where it starts.A person unwillingly looks at a darker/black person and will thing they aren’t as pretty, or that the might steal or that they aren’t people at all. So to say that it doesn’t exist is insane.We have witnessed it for hundreds of years. We do feel that being dark is bad and we look at things that are dark and/or black in a disapproving way.
So if you are Spanish,Malaysian, Japanese, Caribbean, Philippians African, Asian,Arab, Mexican,Korean or what ever and have dark skin and feel the difference….I send you all my love…I’m not in denial and it is there. For those who haven’t been blessed with open eyes….keep searching, the truth is before you eyes, look in the dark.
The first step is admitting that it is here and happening and most importantly that it happened.
Can we please hug on that….racism of any kind hurts us all, and prevents us from the peace we could have.
Comment by jinboo on 18 December 2008:
Look on the bright side but not so bright side, the middle eastern chick had it worse. She’s was hot slim and slender. Why did Tyra bring that first ugly self-hating Black girl on the show. She has to get her ratings some how.
Comment by Salsassin on 18 December 2008:
So how was she automatically Black? She was biracial. You probably have European ancestry. Do you recognize that ancestry? Naw? Then maybe you are self hating as well.
Comment by cnn76 on 19 December 2008:
I’m Panamanian and very proud of it! I eat beans and rice, listen to salsa and merengue and all that good stuff. But don’t get it twisted I am BLACK! Dominicans are always trying to identify themselves with anything other than black. I do have a few relatives that don’t see themselves as black but trust me they are. I relate to both the African American culture and race and Latin culture.
Dominicans have severe issues with race because of political leaders and the overall history of the nation (anything considered black is bad, dirty, poor and for that matter Haitian). To this day, the racial hatred towards Haitians in DR is astounding. Why do you think they have so many damn hair salons and cater to a “kinky” haired clientele? Straight hair is good curly or kinky hair is bad. When speaking about Black Hispanics I put Dominicans in their own category. Their racial identity issues run deep and are far more complex then let’s say Cubans, Panamanians, Hondurians, Nicaraguans, and even Puerto Ricans.
Comment by Salsassin on 19 December 2008:
Just because you identify as a Black Panamanian doesn’t make all Afrodescent Panamanians Black. Again. Cultural context. Most of the West Indians who migrated to Panama from Jamaica and other islands are much less mixed than many of the Afrodescent Panamanians who have been there since colonial times. I addressed the hair claim for Dominicans in the post that wasn’t allowed to post. But you can read it in the link. (By the way, isn’t that straightened hair in your picture?
Comment by lala2qz on 19 December 2008:
The women speaking of Black Dominicans are right, don’t care what that other guy says(who’s making way too big of a deal out of it in the first place, it’s not that serious), I have way too many Dominican friends who admit to what she says and know it’s true. And like… plenty of other Latin cultures recognize that as well. I don’t really see how someone can give an actual Dominican perspective when they are not Dominican, your page says Peruvian.. but ummm… ok.
anywho, I know the perspectives I know from plenty of ACTUAL Dominicans, born and raised there, white brown and black ones. Have your say, but if you go by being mixed with Dominican, then Caribqueen’s perspective counts as an actual Dominican one too.
And is all that you wrote necessary? ummm… nope. It’s all comparative to that facially challenged Black girl, obviously black but doesn’t like it and would rather deny it. even though it stares her in the face everyday she looks in the mirror.
Comment by Salsassin on 19 December 2008:
LOL. That was a direct copy from an email by a Dominican. I did not write it. Try again. A person actually born and raised there. The Panamanian girl is probably of West Indian descent. She does not speak for all Afrodescent Panamanians either. This girl is Half Black, Half White. She is just as much White, as she is Black. If Obama can identify as Black, she can identify as White. WHat stares at her in the face is a mixed face. Maybe the one challenges is you, in the brain. What part of self identity don’t you get? Because Jim Crow imposed one droppism on you, you think all people identify as you do? Now the vast majority of predominantly mixed people outside of the US identify with both sides. Unless they are raised in a community that is more Afro oriented or Euro-oriented.
By the way, I am an actual Latino of mixed ancestry. I think I have more experience talking about the culture than an African American that claims to have talked to some friends.
Comment by Kat on 20 December 2008:
Quote from previous post:
The truth is that some our ancestors deny having roots in Africa, but we the younger generation know that this is impossible, this was also done because the older Garifuna in St. Vincent (And some still do)looked down on other Blacks for being slaves and didn’t want to be associated with them. Traces of this can still be found in Central America, where Creoles may call a Garifuna a derrogatory name, and a Garifuna will say that at least he has a culture of his own and wasn’t a slave.
***************
I think this is the heart of the problem that some people were talking about. The denial of ANY African ancestry in your veins.
Comment by Kat on 20 December 2008:
Quote from previous post:
The truth is that some our ancestors deny having roots in Africa, but we the younger generation know that this is impossible, this was also done because the older Garifuna in St. Vincent (And some still do)looked down on other Blacks for being slaves and didn’t want to be associated with them. Traces of this can still be found in Central America, where Creoles may call a Garifuna a derrogatory name, and a Garifuna will say that at least he has a culture of his own and wasn’t a slave.
***************
I think this is the heart of the problem that some people were talking about. The denial of ANY African ancestry in your veins.
It’s definitely changing now.
Comment by Kat on 20 December 2008:
Wow, ppl sound angry. First off, why does Tara Banks have a show?
Second, I hate to say this but to be racist or shun away from someone because they are different is part of being a mammal/human. It’s human nature. Irish vs English, Japanese vs. Chinese. Region vs. Region in the same country. Jewish vs. Catholic vs Muslim. To hate has been part of the human race for centuries and its not going away. Especially in America, where you see a little of everything. This makes it more difficult to identify ppl w/o asking. Ppl are narrow-minded plus you would need a guidebook to list all possible race/skin color/background/ nationality of everyone just in this country. You’re bound to offend someone. It’s not necessarily intentional tho. Dateline or 20/20 had a special about ppl having a look alike across the world, sometimes of different backgrounds. You hear of two whites having a dark skin baby and fraternal twins resembling two different races. It’s the magic of genetics.
No one is of pure race unless you can track your family to the beginning of time. Most black ppl don’t know their ancestries due to colonization and slavery. I’m a proud Haitian. I’ve been told I’m too light to be Haitian. My paternal gmo is part Arawak Indian; my maternal great grandparents were half German. I have some French somewhere. Haitian slaves are allegedly from the old upper guinea area of Africa. Damn what will my kids look like. My grandfather is sure my ancestry is Somalian because of my eyes. My half brother asks me why are my eyes not a regular brown. Huh. At the end of the day, I’m still human.
Thirdly, I don’t know why ppl want to deny especially in the black community that skin color is not a factor. In Haiti, light skin or preferred over dark skin. Same in America and in Africa nations. In DR, they called dark Dominicans.. Haitians. This is negative not positive. We live in a Euro-centric society and education is still Euro centric. They splattered their influence on the entire world. What do you expect? Of course ppl will compare themselves to white people. You go through school looking at white ppl in textbooks and celebrate blk hx in February, Hispanics one month. I don’t think there is an Asian or Indian month. Is there? As a kid, you end up asking yourself if you belong and try to assimilate in forms of bleaching your skin, coloring and straighten your hair, surgery or denying your ethnicity. No surprises there.
Comment by Salsassin on 20 December 2008:
Oh I agree. Denial of ancestry is foolish be it European, African or Native. But doesn’t mean they have to identify with the culture or make it their identity. I do agree that it is wrong when it is self hate of a part of you. But it is normal to identify more with the side you have interacted more with.
Comment by Salsassin on 20 December 2008:
Well said, Kat. I agree there is an element of colorism in the DR. I just don’t like the, I am hollier than thou type posts where people throw stones in glass houses.
Comment by MochaMami on 20 December 2008:
CNN7@
Sweetheart I’am a BLACK WOMEN who’s mix with DOMINICAN REPUBLICAN and I consider myself dark skinned..most of us do NOT consider or trying to make ourselves blend in with the European race. So please don’t judge us all because of an Ignorant myth some else exposes
PS- Think before you speak!
Comment by Salsassin on 20 December 2008:
Thank you. A very good friend of mine is getting divorced from this guy who met her in the DR. When she came to the US, she kept on here him say negative things of Blacks. She told me: “Why the hell did he marry me then? I come from Blacks as well.” “Yo tambien tengo de negra” She did not consider herself Black but she did have pride in her ancestry. In fact, if you go to the Dominican Museum of History, you are greeted by three statues, Enriquillo, the Indian, Bartolome the Spaniard and Lemba the African. The threepartite identity of the DR.
Comment by bintin on 21 December 2008:
Congratulations to Salsassin,the actual latino of mixed ancestry,who thinks he looks straight germanic!.Although Dominican republic had original natives who were Indian looking before the african slaves were brought there,It will be nice to know if he will be accepted as a brother in India and a German among Germans.I am sure most people will look at him as a light skinned negro,with the africa in their mind.I dont think he realises that a lot of africans were mixed with the whites and arabs and even germans during and after slavery but they dont dwell on the subject’look my grandfather was scottish and my grandmum was arab’In fact there are some areas even in Nigeria where the natives’grandfathers came as sailors and left their breed there.Why Salsassin should go on and on about the subject in Afroromance Site,baffles me.?
I am black,I am from Nigeria,my paternal grandmother was half scottish,and there is also german blood in me but I dont go on about it.Please Salsassi ,get a life!Nobody really cares whether you are mixed or not,the whole world is mixed.Even white people claimed they emmigrated from Africa.
Concerning the fair skinned girl who thinks that black girls discriminates against her,she should see it as compliments because they must be jealous of her beauty not necessarily because she is lighter but must be because they thought the whole of her body is prettier than theirs.Girls are usually jealous of the beautiful girl whether is their own race or not.Years ago Elizabeth Taylor remarked in an interview that she get left out of parties by her friends.She was a threat to them because of her beauty.
No matter what colour you are,you can be beautiful.I am black and I always get chatted up by Indians,white,Arabs,Black etc.I am 64years old and I am still beautiful.
So not all black girls discriminate against the fair ones.I dont.All my nieces are fairer than Salsassin and I love them dearly.I have never had them say to anyone that they are half germans not africans.
Let Peace remains.LOL
Comment by lala2qz on 21 December 2008:
what are you talking about? IM MIXED, but I’m very proud to be BLACK. That’s all I identify with, I do the inverse of what the specific people she is talking about do. I didnt see the word “ALL” The people she speaks of hate or deny the black in them, I love it in me. I never said there was anything wrong with identifying with one part of you, it was about denying that the other part exists. So ummm.. come again please. And though I dont relate to the Latin or any other roots in myself, my family members and CLOSE friends that are can attest to that. People I’ve supposedly talked to? These are people I’ve known for quite a bit of my life. I’m from a younger generation of people and we are way more open. All that you wrote was for what?
The face the first girl in the clip sees is NOT mixed, that’s a black face. An undeniably black one at that. She just wishes that it were white or as she said “even if I were just lighter”. Affects me and not her? haha, obviously it’s taken its toll on her. Me and her are both born and raised American, and it affects me less because I was praised on my skin growing up(except for a few black girls, but jst as many liked it), never had any bad experiences in school like she did, and didnt have to choose. Many of my hispanic friends don’t even think of me as black, they see me as a mutt until I make a big deal out of it. I chose my lifestyle and what I embrace on my own.
Like I said, this wasn’t about what you choose to identify with, but denying the other part exists or hating it. So your argument is invalid, sorry.
Besides, if this were about choosing to identify with one part of yourself, I still wouldnt care, I don’t ever in life claim my other half, would never want to, don’t even want my children to.
wanna talk about that, for awhile I didn’t even want to have a child with someone who was gonna have my child looking like a white puerto rican and speaking spanish. There was a time I would have never considered a white guy cause I’m mixed and chances are that my baby would be white, and the idea of having one sickened me. I would only date black, asian, and native amercans.
is that the best way to think? No, I know i shouldnt have, but many people think that way, just switch it around a little.
ANYWHO…..
I simply said it’s true for quite a few, didnt even condemn anyone. Why would I care or criticize if that were what I meant when I’m more than likely far worse than many?
look at you the ‘multicultural’ white guy trying to be pc and sound well informed to this multicultural(directly mixed)BLACK(i dont consider myself african american mister)19 year old. LOL. trust me, you’d be so much better off ending it now. I’d only give you a head ache.
Comment by lala2qz on 21 December 2008:
lol, its all so funny how you specifically say self identity, when the topic is CLEARLY about the subject of denial. Funny,you negated your own argument. One droppism? OMG, dude, I’M 19!! LOL. That so does not affect me, you’re like half a century behind, I never lived that.
Comment by lala2qz on 21 December 2008:
lol, i had to get some friends to laugh at that with, you said Jim Crow, hahahahaha. my friend Heriberto even hinks that’s hilarious when he read everything. (He’s a proud Dominican by the way)
Let me update you on some things, younger people(at least where I’ve lived) such as myself don’t believe or are even forced to do anything by one droppism, some don’t even know what that is. JIM CROW….. Is that a person? is he alive? I honestly don’t know or care. I’m black(neither of my parents are from Africa), and I was never forced to claim that I’m black, I jst love to identify with that. Ask any of my bosses when they ask me what I am, I say black, not mixed, it’s by CHOICE.
Comment by Salsassin on 21 December 2008:
Oh yeah, the biggest point of the US dichotomy. If it weren’t an issue, this site wouldn’t exist. In Latin America we just go outside and date who we want. African looking, European looking, Asian looking, whatever. We don’t have as many hang ups as people here.
El que no tiene de inga tiene de mandinga. Y tu abuela donde esta?
You on the other hand hate a part of your ancestry. No matter that there where a ton of interracial marriages back then as well. In fact, 40% of the European ancestry in African Americans comes from White women, not men. So who is in denial?
Comment by babe_4_u on 22 December 2008:
Hi all, its interesting to read these articles concerning races and racism. I think the issue of one’s colour matters much more if their self esteem is low otherwise as a person I think one’s character and contribution to making this wonderful world better should be paramount. I should also say this, I am black and I have a son who has white blood and oh!!! how I love this cutie…I think mixed blood people really look cute….
Comment by pattt on 22 December 2008:
on the inside we all look the same
Comment by Salsassin on 22 December 2008:
Just look up Jackson Whites, Melungeons, Lumbees, Redbones, etc.
These ‘triracial’ people can have people in each family that look more African, more Indian or more European. So why would they claim only Black? Heather Locklear is a Lumbee. I never heard anyone calling her Black?
Secondly, African Americans, while indeed mixed, are nowhere near the level of admixture of the Dominican Republic. The vast majority of Dominicans are triracial and are not just 80+% African ancestry.
Shoot, just look at the averages in the US. about 83% African and 17% European per capita as a national average of African Americans. Almost zilch Native American contribution in most African American populations.
Compare that to a study in the DR that showed populations with Diabetes with 64% African ancestry (Not 80+) and other populations without Diabetes with 52% Native American ancestry and only 39% African ancestry. So why should they just claim Black? No Jim Crow and no preponderant African ancestry for many.
Lala2qz should also get a clue and learn that West Indians migrated to many Latin American countries for work. Considering the fact that places like Jamaica have about 92% African ancestry in their national average, It is no surprise that their descendants in Panama and the DR, in places like San Pedro de Macoris identify as Black. There identity was Black before they got there. Same goes with the Americanos, African Americans who migrated to Samana, DR. Or many Dominicans of Haitian descent. Many Dominicans who are not descendents of recent migrations of predominantly African islands, do identify as Black, but the vast majority identify as mulato or indio. Mixed. And their DNA and culture shows it has nothing to do with denial. And no, the whole world is not mixed. 2/3rds of White America showed no African admixture whatsoever. 1/3rd showed levels of admixture that where average 5% African. Not that big a contribution. So it is you who need to get a life.
Why is this important to AfroRomance? Because it is Americans with their particular brand of myopia, who are trying to go to other cultures (notice the whole selection of races/ethnicities) to intermarry. And it is kids like me or other mixed children who are born. And we have to deal with the clash of cultures when one side says, the kid is Mixed, White, Indian, Black, Human, etc. depending on each parent’s culture and the experience of the kid.
So if you are mixed and grew up as Black. That is fine. I am glad you are a part of your community and it is a beautiful one. But if you are riding others for being accepted in other communities that are not Black, and not identifying as Black, get off your high horse. Your little tunnel vision view of the world is not the end all of how people identify themselves around the word, nor do they have to go by your narrow parameters. So long as self hate and denial of ancestry is not involved, people can choose to identify with any ancestral group they come from and in which they are accepted.
And I’m glad you are hit on in the 60+ age range. My dad is 20 years older than you and still gets hit on by women my age. Your point?
Now to address some more of silly little Lalaland’s comments.
You clearly are the exact negative of the girl who identifies as White. Again, I was not defending her particularly as she obviously had some self-hate issues. But apart from her dislike of Black people, she has every right to identify with the White side, just like you have a right to identify with the Black side. You obviously hate the white side in you as you don’t want to have kids with a White person. Who is the one with self-hate? LMAO!! Now you DEFINITELY are in the wrong site. Even if you date Native Americans as well. You are obviously full of self-loathing for one of your ancestral sides. SO you hating on the girl in the video is completely hypocritical.
Again, did she deny she was part Black? No. She said she had issues with that side.
You are dumb if you think looking mixed is just about skin color.
She doesn’t look like she is African. She looks African American because African Americans are mixed. She also looks like many Afro-Latinas. And many do not identify as Black. Yes, it is rarer for darker people of mixed ancestry to identify as White. Most identify as mixed or Black. But it is not unheard of. Especially in Places like Puerto Rico where a reverse one-drop rule was in effect. So again, don’t ASSume.
Sorry bub. I am not a multicultural White. I am mixed. White is but one of my ancestries. I am not in denial like you. You can consider yourself Black all you want. You are a product of the African American culture. Thus the Black identity. That is your right. And the girl in the video has a right to identify as she chooses as well. Your pipsqueak talk is entertaining, bring it on.
Comment by Julianna on 23 December 2008:
Okay, first off…”Salssasin?!?!?!?!” WTF.
Second, when did you become the foremost authority on the “sisters?”. Very strange. Haven’t you learned your lesson on the other websites?
Third, dude, there is nothing “latino” or “hispanic” about you (- know, b/c *I* am!!). You’re adopted. Get over it. Your family loves you just the same.
Fourth, I’m on to you. You WILL go down!!
That is all. I have spoken.
Comment by Situations on 23 December 2008:
I think the problem that these biracial people are expressing is a dislike of what they perceive to be the culture of one of their parents’ races. The good news is there is a great deal of cultural homogenization going on thanks to the evolution of the mass media.
Aspects that black and white culture have in common like aspirational materialism, hedonism, superficiality and identification of social status based on financial success have “transmogrified” into the dominant facets of mainstream culture generally. Whether you watch CMT, BET, or MTV or any of the other Viacom networks the truth is clear: We really aren’t so different after all, we all like to look good, party, and get that money.
Actually that is an exaggeration, I don’t think they have transmogrified so much as have been promulgated by the corporate media. So if I have biracial children (which seems likely) then when they grow up there probably won’t be any cultural differential to foster self-hatred, but I don’t think they’ll be any better off with the unified culture that seems to be emerging.
We are trading off racial conflict for a debased culture which doesn’t reflect the dignified aspects of the African, European, and Native American cultures of our ancestors. If we could unify based on these cultural proclivities, then we could respect each other’s heritage while respecting ourselves.
Comment by Salsassin on 23 December 2008:
Let me address the stupidity.
To Juliana:
Get a clue. You think “sisters” are the only mixed people? And actually, a lot of my opinions come from talking to “sisters” as well. So get the authority plug out of your ass and get a clue.
To grrr:
I am mixed as well. If you had a clue on how to read you would notice that I stated self identity is what matters. In ther words, if you want to identify as Black, great. If you don’t, that is fine as well. It is hypocrites like you who are the problem. You want to have your choice but tell others not to identify as they choose.
Get a clue. I never said Jim Crow is the only reasn. But it is a major factor in creating the African American community as it is today. Feel free to show me any other community in the Americas that one drops. Only the Caribbean ones that are predominantly African. No where else in the Americas would someone like Alicia Keys only be seen as Black. They wouldn’t deny her mix, but they would not only focus on one identity. It would be her choice to choose which group she identifies with.
Comment by Salsassin on 23 December 2008:
The first part of my post that never made it.
To bintin:
If I don’t look European in my avatar, I don’t know who does. I think bintin’s age is showing. Maybe she needs glasses or pills for the dementia if she thinks I look like a “light skinned Negro” as she states. Further more, she needs to get an education as I posted both my comments and I also quoted that of my Dominican friend. I identify as Creole. He identifies as Indian. And not from India. Taino, Native American.
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ht(remove this)tp(colon)//(three double u’s).centrelink(dot)or(remove this)g/JorgeEstevez(dot)jp(remove this)g
He does not deny his African roots. But like African Americans choose to identify their African side as primary, no matter their level of mix, ala Walter White from the NAACP
ht(remove this)tp(colon)//en.wikipedia(dot)or(remove this)g/wiki/Walter_Francis_White
ht(remove this)tp(colon)//(three double u’s).georgiaencyclopedia(dot)or(remove this)g/media_content/m-5972(dot)jp(remove this)g
Jorge chooses to identify as Taino, Indian.
He is easily accepted as Indian and I am easily accepted as Germanic. Although I do not identify as such. I identify as Latino.
Tell me what the average admixture is in Nigeria? I could care less what your admixture is. Where were you raised? What cultural experience did you have?
A few points about the US. And these will address the claims by silly little lala2qz, as well.
The US had Jim Crow which just ended about 40 years ago. Anyone living here a generation ago who did not live in isolated communities (I’ll get to those people in a moment) was forced to identify as Black if they had any African ancestry. After a few generations, it is natural for African Americans to all identify as Black. So silly little lala2qz, is obviously within the norm of her community even though Jim Crow ended. She is still part of the effects of it. Before Jim Crow you had communities that did not identify as Black that were very prominent like the Creoles. Gens de Colour, Mulattoes, etc. Even to this day you have Afrodescent groups in the USA who do not identify as Black but are still proud of their African heritage among others.
Again, it is a bout choice. SO LONG AS SELF HATE IS NOT INVOLVED. ANYONE THAT HATES THEIR BLACK SIDE OR THEIR WHITE SIDE OR ANY OTHER SIDE HAS ISSUES.
Comment by Salsassin on 24 December 2008:
More stupidity as usual. I am half White Half Latino.
Your point? And My Dad is tri racial, that included
Black. Again your point? I know you didn’t read it
all because you have no comprehension power. Right to
choose. That means you could choose to be black as
well. But you are to stupid to notice that. Jim Crow
affects you through you parents stupid. You were
raised by your parents who influenced your identity.
IN other places, people may choose to identify as
Black, White or Mixed. in the AA community because of
Jim Crow, the group has a lot more people who have a
mixed look, so it is easier for someone to accept a
Black identity.
The Black community in the US has a history of many people doing exactly what you describe. Not fully accepting people who look mixed but getting angry if claiming something else.
Now go get hooked on phonics.
Comment by Salsassin on 24 December 2008:
Just look at how people reacted to Tiger Woods when he chose to identify as mixed. And tell me there is no cultural assumptions towards identifying as Black. GTFOH!.
Comment by honest on 24 December 2008:
The level of animosity in this thread is really beyond comprehension. Everyone here is an adult so why not discuss this issue like reasonable adults instead of reverting to ad hominem attacks?
According to both the video and the title of the article, the point of this discussion was to address the issue of people who hate one side of their racial makeup. Choosing to ignore one side is not the same as hating it. In either event, people have to find the side of the coin that fits their life and presumably, hate should not be acceptable.
Even if the perspectives in the U.S. differ from those of the rest of the world, why should we expect people to immediately adopt a different ideology? When in Rome…
Bringing different ideas to the forefront is great because it challenges people’s beliefs and hopefully allows them to grow. However, when those ideas are coupled with put downs and disrespectful language how can anyone expect to grow or learn?
This is a site that is geared toward people who presumably are at a point in their lives where they are able to free themselves from certain racial restrictions. With that being the case, why is it that this topic is generating so much negativity?
Comment by Salsassin on 24 December 2008:
Agreed honest. It just irks me when people want choices for themselves but try to shove an identity for others. I was cordial until juliana, lala(and her alterego grrr) and bintin started posting personal attacks. I tend to cop an attitude when people post asinine posts.
Comment by Julianna on 24 December 2008:
Salsassin (I can’t even write that with a straight face!!) - you have a lot of nerver talking about someone’s comprehension ability or getting hooked on phonics. Perhaps if you spent a little more time studying for the bar exam than spreading your prophecies online…well, you know where I’m going with this…
I’m just sayin’.
Comment by Red on 24 December 2008:
uhh…I think this thread has gotten way off-topic.
This is not a discussion about the one drop rule.
The gist of the “discussion” is about hating (not ignoring) a certain part of your heritage irrespective of how one identifies.
Comment by starthai on 24 December 2008:
And to add to that, the “Jim Crow” rule is derived from racism. I don’t go by that rule, some people call it how they see it either way.
Comment by me on 24 December 2008:
babe_4_u, you are an idiot!
Comment by rubena on 24 December 2008:
I find the discussions interesting, however, there is no need to for “the writers” to quarrel. In regards to the topic, I believe that people are free to view themselves as they do, and free to express it as such. We really don’t know, nor shared their past experiences so we cannot judge them.
Comment by rubena on 24 December 2008:
Lala,thank you for your comments…..Please don’t get personal…..None of us on this site were on Tyra’s show, we are all beautiful inside and out. Personally, I prefer the inside beauty and I am sure that you do. Merry christmas
Comment by Salsassin on 24 December 2008:
Let’s analyze lala’s cluelessness
Comment by Salsassin on 16 December 2008: One group’s perception of what is “White”, “Black”, “Asian”, “Mixed” whatever might not be anothers. In one culture you might be seen as Black, in another you wouldn’t. The Masses vary by region
Ultimately, the dichotomy of Black and White introduced in Jim Crow (believe it or not, one droppism and what not was not a part of slavery) has caused a lot of these antagonisms. Forcing people to pick sides.
Comment by Salsassin on 17 December 2008:
Many Afrodescent people do not like the label Black. So why should Afro-latinas of Panamanian, Dominican, or whatever have to identify as Black just because you choose to do so? Some do, some don’t. That is their choice`. There is nothing wrong with the Black identity, but it is not for everyone, nor is it some type of biological reality they are denying. If they denied they had African ancestry, that would be different. Different perceptions in different cultures.
Then stupid lala says:
Comment by lala2qz on 19 December 2008:
The women speaking of Black Dominicans are right, It’s all comparative to that facially challenged Black girl, obviously black but doesn’t like it and would rather deny it. even though it stares her in the face everyday she looks in the mirror.
Of course there is the assumption that she only looks Black.
Comment by Salsassin on 19 December 2008:
This girl is Half Black, Half White. She is just as much White, as she is Black. If Obama can identify as Black, she can identify as White. WHat stares at her in the face is a mixed faceWhat part of self identity don’t you get? Because Jim Crow imposed one droppism on you, you think all people identify as you do.
Comment by grrr…. on 23 December 2008:
his ignorance towards american ones show when he uses Jim Crow and the one drop rule as the only reason mixed people have pride in their black heritage. huh? and he says african american too? plenty of black people dont even use or like that. why cant they just be black AMERICANS?
She totally missed:
Comment by Salsassin on 16 December 2008: One group’s perception of what is “White”, “Black”, “Asian”, “Mixed” whatever might not be anothers
Comment by Salsassin on 17 December 2008:
Many Afrodescent people do not like the label Black. So why should Afro-latinas of Panamanian, Dominican, or whatever have to identify as Black just because you choose to do so? Some do, some don’t. That is their choice`. There is nothing wrong with the Black identity, but it is not for everyone, nor is it some type of biological reality they are denying.
Comment by Salsassin on 23 December 2008:
Get a clue. I never said Jim Crow is the only reasn. But it is a major factor in creating the African American community as it is today. Feel free to show me any other community in the Americas that one drops. Only the Caribbean ones that are predominantly African. No where else in the Americas would someone like Alicia Keys only be seen as Black. They wouldn’t deny her mix, but they would not only focus on one identity. It would be her choice to choose which group she identifies with.
omment by grrr… on 24 December 2008:
First, I dont care what anyone identifies with, where have I written that since I’m half black and I identify as black, that others should too? ummmm… NOWHERE!
Then why are you arguing with me?
How can you tell ME that Jim Crow is why I LOVE identifying as black? You are so ignorant, if you were half black, maybe your words would mean something. BUT YOU’RE NOT, I AM. There is NO one drop rule where I’m from. It has NEVER affected me. You’re so dumb. In your eyes, it’s not possible for me to identify as black on my own, “OMG must be some other reason, must be Jim Crow.” NOT!! hush hush white guy, you’re the one imposing things on people, Jim Crow has nothing to do with me.
Of course she has no clue about cultural perception and how it influences by generation.
Comment by lala on 24 December 2008:
I am MIXED. wth are you talking about? Show me where I said something about claiming? I SPECIFICALLY said denial. My parents didn’t influence anything, I was raised by my grandmother and she NEVER influenced my choice. Are you half black? NO. so stop trying to act like you would know. You can research ACTUAL half black people like myself all you want, it doesn’t make you know where I come from.
Nice try. You claim mixed but identify as Black and talk bad about a person who recognizes she is mixed but identifies as White. And yes, your family influence is there. Based on who looked like you and identified as Black.
Keep shwng your stupidity. After all, I said it was about choice from the get go. You decided to chime in. All I stated was that Jim Crow was a cultural influence. Get over it.
Comment by Salsassin on 25 December 2008:
Aww, lala is having an identity issue since she removed one profile and started another. So sad.
Teenage stupidity showing again then? Or is it just you?
One. Never argued against personal choice. If you didn’t have a problem with that you are arguing a moot point.
Jim Crow was an enforced cultural practice. Never said Jim Crow existed today. But the cultural group that was formed by it does exist to this day. And you are a part of it.
Never claimed I supported a Half Black girl hating on her Black side. I contradicted those who claimed any who chose to not identify as Black where wrong. So I could care less if you claim to be for choice. The fact that you are still arguing with me invalidates your claim.
Now, go suck on a candy or something.
Comment by K on 25 December 2008:
CAN’T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?
Comment by lala_ on 25 December 2008:
“I contradicted those who claimed any who chose to not identify as Black where wrong. ”
who claimed not identifying as black was wrong?
I continue to argue with you cause you accused me of that when I did no such thing, and not only did you do that but you try to make it seem as if I had no choice and that I think others shouldn’t.
I’ve been repeatedly stating how this is about hate and denial, a few people have also brought up that point. But you keep bringing up self identity. And you say I’m holier thou even though I pointed out awhile ago that I have my own faults and that others do too and that I wouldn’t judge anyone’s self identity.
I don’t claim my other half, more than likely never will because I don’t relate to it so I don’t identify, but it’s there and I don’t deny it. In response to you I’ve said something that would offend some members of my family, simply out of frustration. So, I will clarify that I love all people regardless of ethnicity or color. I’ve already stated my point about the white baby thing cause that was not self hate. I just wanted a caramel baby like me but as I mentioned earlier, that was a little phase because if I were to have a baby, I’d want it to look like it was mine.. which I even stated was not the right way to think.
Anywho, I Love both parts of me cause they make me, me.
I just don’t like you and your bs. Because since the very beginning, I’ve been talking about hate & denial and you always attacked and countered with stuff about self identity. Bt, somehow, you can’t see your fault in that.
I’m gonna mention that you tried to get on my level; and stooped far below me, I’m looking very far down on you. *tisk*tisk* how old are you sir? I was taught to have respect for my elders, and normally always do. but since this started, I’ve had none for you.
I will be the adult and end this. because now that I’ve proven my point, and shown your fault in this, I have no reason to argue or toy with you.
Vous avez plein de merde. good day sir.
Comment by lala_ on 25 December 2008:
oh, one more thing. I deleted my other page because I was being flooded by guys I had no interest in(having that much interest from the opposite sex is another thing I doubt you could relate to….pardon my french). My profile now is only for blogs and chat.
Comment by Salsassin on 25 December 2008:
“who claimed not identifying as black was wrong?”
Ah, you are so asinine you think all posts just deal with you.
“The problem is, no one wants to be black or identified as being black For example “Hispanic” you have black hispanics like Panamain,Honduras, Dominicans etc these cultures would cut off there right hand to say that they are black.”
“Dominicans are always trying to identify themselves with anything other than black. I do have a few relatives that don’t see themselves as black but trust me they are.”
“Why did Tyra bring that first ugly self-hating Black girl on the show.”
I addressed those claims
“I continue to argue with you cause you accused me of that when I did no such thing, and not only did you do that but you try to make it seem as if I had no choice and that I think others shouldn’t.”
Yep, no reading comprehension. I told you you had a choice, but that African American choice was influenced by what its cultural parameters for Black are. Jim Crow created a much larger community that identifies as Black as it fused in mixed groups as well. So your choice is still affected by what you see growing up. And again, it is not just you the individual, it is about general trends.
“I’ve been repeatedly stating how this is about hate and denial, a few people have also brought up that point. But you keep bringing up self identity. And you say I’m holier thou even though I pointed out awhile ago that I have my own faults and that others do too and that I wouldn’t judge anyone’s self identity.”
Keep trying. I already stated I did not agree with self-hate and denial, but I clearly stated that all people that do not identify as Black are not self hating or in denial. But you keep arguing with me so you obviously have issues with that even if you claim otherwise.
“I don’t claim my other half, more than likely never will because I don’t relate to it so I don’t identify, but it’s there and I don’t deny it. In response to you I’ve said something that would offend some members of my family, simply out of frustration. So, I will clarify that I love all people regardless of ethnicity or color. I’ve already stated my point about the white baby thing cause that was not self hate. I just wanted a caramel baby like me but as I mentioned earlier, that was a little phase because if I were to have a baby, I’d want it to look like it was mine.. which I even stated was not the right way to think.”
Nice amendment. I still think that mentality is latent in you. Didn’t see you say that you wouldn’t marry someone darker than you because the kid would come out to dark. SO it still is about you disliking one specific side more.
“Anywho, I Love both parts of me cause they make me, me.”
LOL. I’d love to see you take an unconscious bias test. But I doubt you ever will.
“I just don’t like you and your bs. Because since the very beginning, I’ve been talking about hate & denial and you always attacked and countered with stuff about self identity. Bt, somehow, you can’t see your fault in that.”
More cluelessness. It was you who jumped in and accused me of comments when I was addressing other posters. So spare me, the claim that I just addressed self identity in a void. And don’t BS about what you said.
“The women speaking of Black Dominicans are right, don’t care what that other guy says.”
You agreed with their comments.
“anywho, I know the perspectives I know from plenty of ACTUAL Dominicans, born and raised there, white brown and black ones.”
You ignored the fact that I posted an actual quote from a Dominican living in the island.
“It’s all comparative to that facially challenged Black girl, obviously black but doesn’t like it and would rather deny it. even though it stares her in the face everyday she looks in the mirror.”
And you made the claim that because the biracial girl was darker she could only be Black and was in denial. So cut the crap that you support choice.
“I’m gonna mention that you tried to get on my level; and stooped far below me, I’m looking very far down on you. *tisk*tisk* how old are you sir? I was taught to have respect for my elders, and normally always do. but since this started, I’ve had none for you.”
You are an adult when you are 18. Period. You stooped into idiocy, and continue to do so. I will show that idiocy.
“I will be the adult and end this. because now that I’ve proven my point, and shown your fault in this, I have no reason to argue or toy with you.”
LOL, this whole thread shows you have yet to behave or think like an adult or more importantly, like a rational being.
“Vous avez plein de merde. good day sir.”
Merde, c’est ce que vous avez à l’intérieur du cerveau.
“oh, one more thing. I deleted my other page because I was being flooded by guys I had no interest in(having that much interest from the opposite sex is another thing I doubt you could relate to….pardon my french). My profile now is only for blogs and chat.”
And I should care why you changed your profile why? Still doesn’t change what you posted with that other profile. On your side note, People contacting me every day seem to differ from your foolish opinion. But I guess your profile only attracted guys interested in sex. Sorry to hear that. If you weren’t so asinine in the content of your posts, the clearly wasted intelligence that is there would shine through more. You are a smart kid, but you seriously need to work on your reading comprehension, your memory retention of what you wrote, and your maturity.
I have no problem going down to the gutter when someone is throwing mud. The difference is that my posts tend to be above that, respectful, on average. I am still waiting to see you take one step out of the gutter once.
Comment by homesteader on 25 December 2008:
I was taught , sticks n’ stones will break your bones , but names with never hurt you . I drove cross-country truck for years and never met anyone that , I did not show respect for . Enjoy the days one at a time . Life is far too short to hate . Love Les
Comment by homesteader on 25 December 2008:
P.S. I do not watch television , people are paid to show foolishness on those shows . And I do not like 8 commercials every ten minutes so I shut the satelitte off years ago , DVD or VCR movies only for me hehe . Love Les
Comment by lala_ on 25 December 2008:
This has become quite lame.
Tell me how many 18 year olds have developed the since of maturity and frame of mind that you are expected to have at an age such as yours? Not many at all, some things come with life experience and time. So, if you think you should be on the same level of the average 18/19 year old “adult”, then that’s very disappointing.
You attacked me several times about self identity, even right after I mentioned the fact that I’m speaking about hate. Remember you saying that people like me want to have their choice but not let others have theirs? Must’ve slipped your mind. So, though I don’t have a problem with it, I continued to respond because you continued to accuse me of that. And go ahead and say you weren’t addressing me, even though you specifically said my name.
I have no problem with her identifying as white, it’s her choice. I used a metaphor, smarty pants. She hates black people, denies THEM(not that she isn’t half), thinks lowly of them, as they are lesser beings. But she even said that when she looks in the mirror, she sees black. The very thing she hates. So it’s not that since she’s darker that she can only be black, cause I never said that. It’s that she hates it in her and how it affects her outward appearance and would rather it not be there.
Don’t blame me for your misinterpretation.
Most people are somewhat biased, in some sort of way. I didn’t condemn her for liking her white side more, just made comments about her hating her black side. So why the big deal if I seem to like my black side more, when I don’t even hate my other half?
Like I said, I like being me, without either of the halves, I’d be someone else. She wishes the black wasn’t there, and that she was all white.
Lastly,
I was never receiving anything about sex, if I did, I would’ve simply reported it. I wasn’t trying to insult you, because either way,I make my insults very bold. But just stating the very obvious -that of course I receive more attention and interest than you and that you would not understand the volume of unneeded validation and interest I receive from guys of all ages, colors, and levels of attractiveness. But I didn’t sign up for people to send me crazy long notes about being my soulmate, or telling me how they would give me whatever I want and how we were meant to be. I doubt, better yet, I KNOW you haven’t gotten half as much of the interest that I did. Therefore, you wouldn’t understand.
Okay so anyway, what I can get of this is a misunderstanding. Cause this wouldn’t have gotten as far if you hadn’t attacked me, when all I said was that you make way to big out of a deal of it and agree with some things said, and that she hates what she sees(she said she saw black, not me) Did I say she was not mixed? No. Like I said, don’t blame me for your misinterpretation.
Comment by Salsassin on 25 December 2008:
LOL. Your assumption is that I joined to meet a soul mate. I actually joined because of a debate I was having on another board. It led me here and I joined out of curiosity. You did not just attack that girl, you attacked Dominicans in general. So spare me the hypocrisy. I already stated what I agreed and disagreed with her identity and her self hate.
Comment by caribqueen81 on 25 December 2008:
I wish I could “lock” this “discussion”.
I’ve created a monster.
Please, e-friggin-nough!
This thing took on a whole ‘nother life and I want it dead.
I’ve stepped up and have taken responsibility, now please, let’s kill this.
Comment by homesteader on 25 December 2008:
In conclusion : what I see here is the inexperience of youth , at 60 years old and traveling 48 States and Canada . Doing business with many thousands of different people in many lines of employment / Restaurants , Truckstops , garages , warehouses offices and people on the streets in these many cities in all these States . And I found several things , we all got to work , eat talk and mingle everyday with others . All of different Heritages , with age I learned we all are the same as we put our pants on one leg at a time . I was taught Judge not for yee shall be Judged , if someone does not respect you , just say Thank you and turn and walk away . As I have never met you alas I assume that you are Magnificent in your own way . Love Les P.S. You is meant to be interpreted in the plural sense as I am talking to All not one . Thank you .
Comment by starthai on 25 December 2008:
To me:
“babe_4_u, you are an idiot!”
Oh really?? I welcome you to articulate that my dear.
BTW I’m not your babe.
Comment by starthai on 25 December 2008:
Excuse my ignorance Me for not realizing your not stepping on my toes. I didn’t realize there was a babe_4_u. I need to read the names of each comment for now on.
Comment by aeon on 26 December 2008:
people can identify there self as want they want but people are still goin 2 c u as wat they c of you my father is wht,filipino,and japanese with blue eyes and blond hair and my mother is black and im multiracial ppl ask me i tell them im blk japanese wht filipino
Comment by vt33 on 2 January 2009:
Ladies and Gents you can pull every book out, read every quote, look up every detail, research ancestry, scratch the itch basically. What it really boils down to is, in our society, we teach hate, subliminally in a lot of cases.
I am a seventies baby and growing up partially in the inner city, that was where I was taught the diffrence between light and dark skinned blacks. Kids I played with would pick on kids that were darker I didn’t understand the difference until I became a teenager, it was more accepted to be light skinned or “indian in my family” then just dark. I’m still trying to figure out where that came from. I heard it started from slavery, light skin was put in the house to work, the darks out in the fields. Shame how it still rings true over a hundred years later. Light on top dark on bottom, mixed overall better.
I sympathize with some of the guest on Tyras show, because people teach them to hate themselves by treatment of them in our society. Pecola Breedlove, black deemed ugly, and picked on, Janie Crawford, beauty, Celie Johnosn, “you sho is ugly”. That just books and film.
I have always thought it was cool to be of multi cultures, it gives the person an extra added self history to explore. Embracing who you are should never been a reason to hate what you are. Society needs to practice each one teach one, and quit seperating colors, people are people, color doesn’t define you but with shows like this it can damn well break you.
Ciao!
Comment by hawkercat on 2 January 2009:
I believe it is one of the most ignorant things in the world to judge someone by color. Are we going to judge other things by color? I dont like this horse it is spotted get it away, I dont like this cat it is white, I dont like this dog it is too dark get it away, I dont like these red flowers destroy them.
That is how stupid it sounds to me when people talk about prejudice and color. Look at the world we have been given, there is an abundance of variety and color. It is all beautiful beyond words.
Talk of 5 races confuses me. Look at other species. How many different breeds (races) there are among horses, dogs, cats, etc. Each of these breeds have their own distinct features. And you will notice when they are allowed to breed only in their breed with no new gene pool being introduced bad things happen. some are born deformed, deaf, and/or blind. In humans interbreeding in sects has produced genetic deases. I believe we were meant to interbreed as much as possible to keep the gene pools healthy and to beautify the world with the variety of people we can produce.
I have 3 children who are mixed. They all consider themselves to be just that ‘a mix’ not just of black and white but Native American as well.
Viva la difference !
Comment by life2go on 6 January 2009:
I’m black and I love it. People can be racist, hate me because of my skin, ignore me because of my skin, or love me because of my skin and guess what?
I don’t give a rats behind because I will wake up looking in the mirror loving my full lips, curvacious figure, and my super-strength which is required to wade through all the “brown” woman haters. Whether people love you or hate you - you have to love you cause if you don’t the haters will infect your mind.
This conversation got really deep and about half way through I was getting restless so I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.
Most of my black friends and family are brown, not light, black and in my 29 years I’ve only heard one make a comment about light skin women being stuck up… on the flip I have had many light skin women, whom I befriended, assume I or brown skinned women held some animosity for their color which is crazy because I have friends who are not near white, but they are White so why would I dislike a light-black person? Silly. Also the woman that was practically like my 2nd mother, my moms best friend, is a very light, blonde, light eyed black woman. It never occurred to me this was a serious issue until my 20’s because it never really touched me growing up. This still amazes me everyday.
I will say though, I am sickened by the media who seems to have glommed onto this weakness in the black community and they run with it every chance they get. Disgusted.
Ooops I didn’t mean to rant. These blogs are dangerous. :^)
By the way someone was mentioning earlier about going to Brazil with your brown skin to be better accepted… ummm… I think you may want to research that further because that is a perpetuated myth. Yes Brazil is a diverse mix, so is America, but that doesn’t mean that “diversity” on the darker end of the stick is treated any better there.
If you don’t believe me read The Unedited Diaries of Carolina Maria de Jesus. This very successful author had to pay her maid, in Brazil, extra money because the more Euro looking brazilian maid resented having to work for this more African looking brazilian woman. Better yet just google “racism in Brazil.” Also read about how the Confederacy migrated to Brazil after the Civil War. They took their racism with them.
Colorism is alive and well in all aspects of the world, even Africa. I say Colorism because it is becoming less about race. It is about skin color and following that facial features.
Comment by Salsassin on 6 January 2009:
Brazil, has racism like many other places, but it varies by region and class. Just like the US.
The US has a lot more racial tension than in Brazil, but it also has a lot more class mobility.
In Brazil, overall admixture has been a lot higher, but class still goes hand in had with exclusion, and the higher classes will exclude poorer people who look less White. Having said that, you will find poor Whites living side by side with Blacks in the favelas, that are not raised with the antagonism that you see across class lines here in the US. It is comparing apples and oranges. Both places have their negative aspects.
What you do not hear is the kind of violence that occurs in the US like the murder of that Black girl in Florida by a white dude or that interracial couple in California by 4 black dudes. Colorism is still alive in Brazil, like many places in the Caribbean and Afro Americana, but there is not the same level of racial tension as exhibited in certain regions of the US.
Confederates did migrate to Brazil because of farming opportunities and escaping the loss of the war. The town is called Americana near Sao Paolo. But they did not perpetuate their racism with them over there, Brazil was still a slave state at the time. And yet most did not own slaves over there. In fact, many of them actually mixed with the local population and many are Afrodescent today.
There was a story the other day of how some of them came to the US and where shocked at what the confederate flag meant in the USA, because over there it meant something very different. Not racist at all. Wikipedia has a decent article on them under Confederados.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederados
Comment by lala2qz on 9 January 2009:
so basically…. you pay for a membership out of curiosity?? hmm…. and I know you pay because of the messages you sent me..
I joined out of curiosity, and as a nonpaying member, I can say that if that were the case for you, there really would be no reason to pay.
anywho, I didnt attack anyone besides you and… MYSELF, oh and…. that girl when I said that she is facially challenged. I agreed with a comment made that there are quite a few that deny African ancestry. Like I said, you’re the one jumping to conclusions. I have no problem with others identity, you kept saying I did and that’s how that argument kept going.
But… oh I was definitely being quite childish in some responses, sorry about that. Was going for your reaction more than anything…. it entertained me at the moment. I apologize, sincerely. I know I can be a bit mischievously quarrelsome at times when I dislike someone to a certain degree and purposely go for their -i can’t think of the word right now-. You made such a big deal out of this whole thing, I knew every little thing would provoke you, sooo…. I’m sorry.
Comment by lala2qz on 9 January 2009:
But you did misinterpret my first post. Yes, I did indeed attack you, but aside from that; I only agreed that there are some Dominicans that deny and hate having any African ancestry. I also pointed out the fact that the girl hates that she’s half black even though when she looks in the mirror, she herself sees a black face(which she stated). So I wasn’t denying anything I said, you read it wrong. And you did attack me on the “not IDENTIFYING as black” thing several times. You now say it wasn’t addressed to me, but you specifically pointed me out.
Comment by Salsassin on 9 January 2009:
To aeon:
It doesn’t matter what you are called, it is what you respond to. Consider this, many Native Americans look Asian, or Latino. Many African Americans look Dominican, or Middle Eastern. And they are constantly questioned on their identity. But that does not change who they are. Both what you are raised as and what you are exposed as growing up in the public arena affect how your identity is formed, but once it’s there, no one can claim you re something else.
I have plenty of friends who are now on the pro Mulatto identity thing. Whatever works for them. But just because they want Obama to identify as such, doesn’t make him so. He identifies as Black, so that is what he is. Now his brother in China does not identify as Black and he isn’t.
to vt33:
I do agree this society has a trend of teaching hate and separatism.
Light skin vs dark skin colorism basically arose from a few factors.
One is from actual native traditions that have been common the world over. Upper class in almost all continents has avoided tanning and it’s damage to the skin, while the working class toiled on the fields and had rich tans. So early in history there has been a tradition of colorism through out many civilizations including Africa of darker (as in tanned) being frowned on. But over millenia it has lead to many favoring lighter skin for the obvious reason that it enhanced that difference.
In the industrial world, that trend has actually been reversed to a degree as tans became a sign of wealth and an active life style. So now we are seeing a trend where medium complexions are the most favored. not too light and not too dark.
That is one factor.
Second ancient trend:
As farming started to develop, so did concentrated settlements. But originally farming diets where not that healthy or balanced. In fact, fact they blocked a lot of absorption of much needed Vitamin D. So you see a slight lightening of the skin in farming populations vs hunter gatherers. Obviously when diets became more balanced, this was no longer a major issue, but it did lead to a slight lightening of populations through the entire fertile crescent, North Africa, China and India. Think of Middle Eastern and North African people today. This may have lead to the prior trend I mentioned of upper class vs lower class, but also between populations.
By the way, overall, women are also lighter than men for the same reason. They need more vitamin D during gestation, so except for the places of highest radiation, women tend to have developed slightly lighter skin than men.
So those are global trends that have existed.
Particular to the Americas and Africa:
In Africa you have the lighter skinned populations of North Africa, but you also have the Arab slave traders since 100 AD who excursioned through out Africa and also mixed in many places. Many of their progeny also continued the slave trade creating dichotomies of darker vs lighter as seen to this day in places like Sudan and the Maghreb.
In the US and Latin America:
Many of the first Africans to come to the US where freemen, not slaves, and there where no miscegenation laws so many mixed with European descent people. As well as some migrants from the Northern parts of Africa. As free people they also were able to develop and accumulate generational wealth. You see a lot of their descendants in old lineage upper class Black America in New England as well as well as parts of the south with the Gens de Colour. SO you had the dichotomy of the freeman vs the slave who was brought predominantly from the darker regions of Africa like Angola. And unfortunately this led to a second dichotomy. You had the mulatto and light skinned Black populations that were predominantly lighter (comparatively) and you had the predominantly darker slave populations.
You also had a trend for a while of giving more rights to Indian populations who were comparatively lighter and whose children with Whites were also classified as mulatto in early America. So that added to that dichotomy.
That was the base of colorism.
Add to that, in slavery, contrary to popular urban mythology, it wasn’t being Black that made you a slave, it was who your mother was. Matrilinealism. So there where many slaves who descended from the Irish slaves that were brought over who were predominantly women. Many slave masters would favor mixed descent slaves, not because of some false Willie Lynch Machiavellian plan, but simply because they resembled them more. Subconscious comfort zones. (Of course, this was not always a bonus. Many times lighter skinned slaves would get the wrath of the female spouse because they were suspected as illegitimate children of the slavemaster and evidence of his infidelity. Or many times they were victimized as rape victims at higher rates when they were available because they carried trends of beauty that were more Eurocentric as well as Afrocentric trends of beauty.)
Ultimately though, all these populations got integrated during Jim Crow and many of these trends remained subconsciously, or in many cases just the perception of those differences. Unappreciation of the darkest women. (Both because of light skin and dark skin dichotomy and gender difference in colors dichotomy where lighter skin is seen as more feminine where darker is seen as more masculine)
And with the trend reversal in industrialized nations, the real light skins lost a lot of their appeal as being seen as unhealthy, white trash, etc. So medium complexions have been glorified by the media. From the tanned golden Eurocentric look (either by tan or by regular pigmentation) to the mahogany type complexions that you see predominantly in Black media all the time. You rarely see the lightest and darkest complexions in Black media.
These subconscious biases are of course completely inaccurate and based on millenia of feudalistic societies. Dark skin is actually healthier than light skin, in many ways, and is less susceptible to the ravages of solar radiation. (It also is at larger risk for developing melanomas that are detected at much more advanced stages though), so in terms of ageless beauty, dark skinned women have the upper hand. (another reason many of the lighter skinned populations may have stayed out of the sun and “prided” themselves on their light skinned beauty. They had to stay out of the sun if they wanted to maintain it, or wrinkle up a lot quicker).
In today’s, world, all those ancient reasons for colorism are just plain stupid. But unfortunately we are still dealing with many of the subconscious biases that are perpetuated by culture to this day.
I have dated African women who are extremely beautiful in their dark complexions, yet I really don’t see them in represented in the Black media in the US. And I have seen light skinned beautiful Black women who are also rarely represented. Usually they have to sport a tan at least. If they have more Eurocentric facial features, then Eurocentric beauty standards apply as she is appealing to the larger community, but if the woman is light skinned and has more Afrocentric features, she faces the uphill battle of people thinking she has colorism privileges because she is light (Even though medium toned complexions are far more popular) and discrimination because she has more Afrocentric features as well. I’ve actually conducted experiments with facial features (Yes I studied social psychology and anthropology so these issues interest me) and have taken a broad featured darker skinned woman (more Afrocentric beauty) and a light skinned thin featured woman (more Eurocentric beauty) and digitally created all the facial features possible in between them from medium complexions and medium width phenotypes to light skinned faces with broad features, to dark skinned faces with thin features to combined broad and thin features with all three skin tones. In controlled tests of peoples tastes (you see two images, and you choose one, then you go to the next, same thing) Overall the medium complected medium ranged facial featured women always got the most hits) So obviously colorism does play a role, but so does facial structure biases, and the ones that are getting the most attention are not the lightest, but the the medium complected looks with medium features.
Sad, but that is the way perception is today. Personally, I find beauty in all skin color ranges and facial structure ranges. And hopefully with time these biases will diminish and disappear.
to hawkercat
I couldn’t agree with you more, but with a caveat. Like I said before, that mixed look is very popular right now. Heck I have cousins and siblings who get all the love because of it. But there is also beauty that is more on the extreme of human variability, and that type of beauty tends to go unrecognized. Because of classist appeals of extreme light skin from Europe and North Asia, the light skinned beauties with more Eurocentric or Asiocentric appeal are still admired a lot, that trend may have been challenged by the new tanned trend, but still has it’s strong supporters. Even dark skinned women with more Eurocentric or Asiocentric features get a lot of attention because of their exoticness (less common) But the one group that has been marginalized the most is dark skinned women with medium to broad features. Alek Wek is very uncommon in the media. Yet beautiful women in this range abound. I hope the media will someday realize their underepresentation of this population (Which is a much larger segment of the African American community than many of the mohagony beauties they constantly highlight in the media) and exemplify dark skinned medium to broad featured beauty common in Africa, the Caribbean and also very common in the African American community.
to lala2qz:
LOL. Yes I paid for one month of membership. After joining out of curiosity I played the Yes, No, Maybe game. KInd of like the Hot or Not sites. Where you go through a bunch of pictures and rate them. Hot=Yes, Not=No, In between=Maybe. It was fun and I didn’t think much of it. What I didn’t know was that if any person has filters set up, and you do not fit their exact preference (They checked outdoors, and you didn’t check that), an aoutomatic rejection letter is sent out. “Sorry, we are not a match”. Next thing I know (I didn’t have a completed profile so I hadn’t checked a lot of things), I got a ton of rejection emails. My ego kicked in and I paid the one months fee just to send all of them an email saying that I wasn’t trying to pick them up, but was just complimenting them on their beauty. No offense intended.
Yeah, I can be petty like that. Of course then I got a ton of responses from people who said they never sent me anything. So I made many acquaintances by accident. LOL. I am back to the unpaid membership now. But I have met some cool people so the one month was worth it.
You attacked Dominicans in general as a trend. I happen to have lived in the DR, el Cibao, to be exact, have had a few Dominican girlfriends and many Dominican friends. So while I have seen colorism, I resent when they are attacked for colorism that exists throughout the AfroDiaspora.
The only problem people REALLY have with the DR is that they are not raised with a One Droppist mentality and thus were not raised in their majority as Black identified, and two their historical animosity with Haitians who auto identify as Black nationally. In juxtaposition, many Dominicans identify as Mulato or Indio, to contrast with the Haitian identity.
LOL You didn’t rile me up. I like debating, and I like sharing information, if you haven’t figured it out by now. So I had no problem with the tit for tat. I just followed your cue as to the level of the debate. I do stick to what I know is fact. I won’t just play Devil’s Advocate and argue something I don’t believe in or that I know not to be factual. The only thing I find annoying is when my posts are moderated for content. LOL.
Comment by lala2qz on 9 January 2009:
Huh??? you’re silly, I would definitely not pay for that. But to each their own.
But hey, I’m just pointing out the fact that you brought in a TON of useless info to counter what I was saying. Which is why I kept going, otherwise, I really had no reason to respond unless to provoke a response from you. But ultimately, I got what you were trying to say a while ago, but I felt you were throwing accusations at me when much of it was nothing to do with me but purposely aimed towards me. Which I thought was weird because I was talking about hate and denial, and besides I threw myself under the bus in my second post, to show that I really have no problem with identity issues because I clearly had a load of my own.
So yea, I did notice that you like to debate. I did get to you in a degree and I could see it in your responses. I was in the mood for it, but got tired of it because it seemed like a pointless one and that you were arguing against something I didn’t really do in the first place.
Okay, so on to something else.
The lighter skinned thing has it’s truths, as I got older I remember being influenced to feel that I was better because I am mixed and because of my hair and also because my skin isn’t as dark as alot of black people’s. Aww but that ultimately gave me a few issues, cause I think that deep dark skin is beautiful and I don’t think lowly of black and being half black. I personally didn’t like being called a yellow bone or being compared to a moon pie(haha, yea, a moonpie). I think it’s a wonderful thing. I think hate is a horrid thing. Which is why I don’t think kindly of the first girl from the video because she is filled with it. Her hate makes her hate herself, she feels she should be lighter when her skin is lovely. I don’t feel above her because I am lighter, I do because of other reasons, so I don’t see why she thinks she would be a higher being to be my color or lighter.
And… when you commented that alot of mixed children migrate towards the multicultural thing, you had a point, I went through that stage, my ex who is also mixed did the same thing. He wanted us to have an Oreo Island or something. But he identifies as black also. Me personally, I know people aren’t unjustly accusing some groups like that of thinking they are better, cause ummm…. being a part of it I know many that do. Who have issues of their own and put down black people who arent mixed to feel better about themselves.
Comment by Julia on 9 January 2009:
Holy Sh*t!!! Are you people still talking about this?!?!? Can Mr. Two Left Feet (aka “Salsassin”…still brings giggles!) just be ignored!!! PLEASE!!! Turn the page…move on…get a life…
Comment by Salsassin on 9 January 2009:
I’m always entertained when people with anonymous ID’s make any sort of comment. Troll, I can dance circles around your retarded ass.
Comment by laugh_sailor on 10 January 2009:
Thanks, Salsassin, for your excellent history of skin color preferences - I’ve known much of it but have never had it presented as a cohesive whole. It’s a pleasure seeing the forest in addition to the trees.
Comment by NOPLAYER on 10 January 2009:
Skin color is just that but a culture is intirely different. I believe that there are people around the world of African origin that have been taught to believe that Africa or anything associated with Africa is bad.
People must educate themselves and not be so smalled minded. I’m a blackman from St. Louis and I can see beauty and I’m appreciative of the contribution of all people of this planet.
If only people could travel and broaden their scope of life. The world is much bigger than where you live, people are the same but in some ways different than those you grew up around.
As a US Army veteran I’ve had the chance to travel around the world and experience different things so my outlook on life is different than alot of people.
You dont have to travel the world to broaden your scope go to the cultural festivals in your city, go to a reasturant other than Chinese or Mexican or make an aquaintance of a different culture.
By learning and seeing value in others you grow to love and appreciate the uniqueness of your own culture.
Comment by chika507 on 16 January 2009:
THIS IS WHATS HAPPENING TO ME RIGHT NOW IN SCHOOL AND IN PUBLIC…IN SCHOOL MY FRIENDS OR MY CLASSMATES THINK THAT IM MEXICAN UNTIL I START SPEAKING SPANISH AND THATS WHEN THEY RELIZED THAT IM NOT JUST MEXICAN…IM HALF PANAMANIAN AND HALF MEXICAN…MY MOM IS FROM PANAMA AND MY DAD IS FROM MEXICO…..AND WHEN THEY ASK ME WHAT TYPE OF MUSIC I LISTEN TO I ALWAYS TELL THEM THAT I ONLY LISTEN TO TROPICAL MUSIC AND NOT MEXICAN MUSIC…IT REALLY EXASPERATES ME IM NOT JUST MEXICAN IM PANAMANIAN AND MEXICAN ….IM NOT HATING ON MY OTHER SIDE BUT REALLY IS JUST ANNOYING HOW PEOPLE CAN BE SO IGNORENT ….
Comment by YngCaramelQT on 2 February 2009:
What’s interesting to me is that people get so caught up in race that they fail to realize the difference between race and ethnicity. So this show did not just deal with bi-racial beings. It also dealt with people of the same race hating different ethnicities (for example the Korean that doesn’t like Chinese, and the Chinese girl that doesn’t like Koreans).
I didn’t really see many people on there that actually HATE one of their two races (only two of the first four girls). The girl that was obviously Latino (her mom was Black and her dad Latino) only claimed to be Black because she couldn’t identify with being Latino…her father was never there. There’s nothing wrong with identifying with one race more than another, it’s when a person is ashamed of and/or denies a race that it becomes a problem. I wonder if they realize they are basically disowning one of their parents, and their ancestors on that side.
The rest of the show was just stupid. It was nothing but stereotypes….like “based on this persons silhouette what race do you think they are?”
That segment was just asinine.
However, the “you have it easier because you’re light-skinned/dark-skinned” argument should be something she spends time on (since she likes to focus on race issues so much). She didn’t try to get to the core of the problem, she just told them they had more in common and needed to talk to each other about it. As big of an issue as it is among Black Americans, it deserves its own episode. Not to lay it out like “boom, it’s a problem, deal with it,” like she did in that segment, but to actually look into the reasons and offer up a solution.
Comment by Salsassin on 25 March 2009:
Oh shit, I missed AALove’s last post when I debated with Laurelton.
I see your lack of logic didn’t disappoint. You state that Afro Latinos didn’t this economy, so they don’t have a say. Neither did White Latinos exploit Blacks in this economy, yet you put them in the equation. The point remains that Afro-Latinos experience the same discrimination African Americans do in this country, yet they do not carry the same stigmas you do. Slavery was abolished there over 150 years ago and we never had Jim Crow. And my family descends from European, Native and African. SO we don’t owe shit to anyone.
You can make a ton of claims of probabilities, but you have yet to show one credible bit of evidence that Willie Lynch existed. I already pointed out why colorism existed way before Willie Lynch.
“Light skin vs. dark skin colorism basically arose from a few factors.
One is from actual native traditions that have been common the world over. Upper class in almost all continents has avoided tanning and it’s damage to the skin, while the working class toiled on the fields and had rich tans. So early in history there has been a tradition of colorism through out many civilizations including Africa of darker (as in tanned) being frowned on. But over millennia it has lead to many favoring lighter skin for the obvious reason that it enhanced that difference.
In the industrial world, that trend has actually been reversed to a degree, as tans became a sign of wealth and an active life style. So now we are seeing a trend where medium complexions are the most favored. Not too light and not too dark.
That is one factor.
Second ancient trend:
As farming started to develop, so did concentrated settlements. But originally farming diets where not that healthy or balanced. In fact, fact they blocked a lot of absorption of much needed Vitamin D. So you see a slight lightening of the skin in farming populations vs. hunter-gatherers. Obviously when diets became more balanced, this was no longer a major issue, but it did lead to a slight lightening of populations through the entire Fertile Crescent, North Africa, China and India. Think of Middle Eastern and North African people today. This may have lead to the prior trend I mentioned of upper class vs. lower class, but also between populations.
By the way, overall, women are also lighter than men for the same reason. They need more vitamin D during gestation, so except for the places of highest radiation, women tend to have developed slightly lighter skin than men.
So those are global trends that have existed.
Particular to the Americas and Africa:
In Africa you have the lighter skinned populations of North Africa, but you also have the Arab slave traders since 100 AD who excursioned through out Africa and also mixed in many places. Many of their progeny also continued the slave trade creating dichotomies of darker vs. lighter as seen to this day in places like Sudan and the Maghreb.
In the US and Latin America:
Many of the first Africans to come to the US where freemen, not slaves, and there where no miscegenation laws so many mixed with European descent people. As well as some migrants from the Northern parts of Africa. As free people they also were able to develop and accumulate generational wealth. You see a lot of their descendants in old lineage upper class Black America in New England as well as well as parts of the south with the Gens de Colour. SO you had the dichotomy of the freeman vs. the slave who was brought predominantly from the darker regions of Africa like Angola. And unfortunately this led to a second dichotomy. You had the mulatto and light skinned Black populations that were predominantly lighter (comparatively) and you had the predominantly darker slave populations.
You also had a trend for a while of giving more rights to Indian populations who were comparatively lighter and whose children with Whites were also classified as mulatto in early America. So that added to that dichotomy.
That was the base of colorism.
Add to that, in slavery, contrary to popular urban mythology, it wasn’t being Black that made you a slave; it was who your mother was. Matrilinealism. So, there where many slaves who descended from the Irish slaves that were brought over who were predominantly women. Many slave masters would favor mixed descent slaves, not because of some false Willie Lynch Machiavellian plan, but simply because they resembled them more. Subconscious comfort zones. (Of course, this was not always a bonus. Many times lighter skinned slaves would get the wrath of the female spouse because they were suspected as illegitimate children of the slave master and evidence of his infidelity. Or many times they were victimized as rape victims at higher rates when they were available because they carried trends of beauty that were more Eurocentric as well as Afrocentric trends of beauty.)
Ultimately though, all these populations got integrated during Jim Crow and many of these trends remained subconsciously, or in many cases just the perception of those differences. Unappreciation of the darkest women. (Both because of light skin and dark skin dichotomy and gender difference in colors dichotomy where lighter skin is seen as more feminine where darker is seen as more masculine)
And with the trend reversal in industrialized nations, the real light skins lost a lot of their appeal as being seen as unhealthy, white trash, etc. So the media has glorified medium complexions. From the tanned golden Eurocentric look (either by tan or by regular pigmentation) to the mahogany type complexions that you see predominantly in Black media all the time. You rarely see the lightest and darkest complexions in Black media.
These subconscious biases are of course completely inaccurate and based on millennia of feudalistic societies. Dark skin is actually healthier than light skin, in many ways, and is less susceptible to the ravages of solar radiation. (It also is at larger risk for developing melanomas that are detected at much more advanced stages though), so in terms of ageless beauty, dark skinned women have the upper hand. (Another reason many of the lighter skinned populations may have stayed out of the sun and “prided” themselves on their light skinned beauty. They had to stay out of the sun if they wanted to maintain it, or wrinkle up a lot quicker).
In today’s, world, all those ancient reasons for colorism are just plain stupid. But unfortunately we are still dealing with many of the subconscious biases that are perpetuated by culture to this day.
I have dated African women who are extremely beautiful in their dark complexions, yet I really don’t see them in represented in the Black media in the US. And I have seen light skinned beautiful Black women who are also rarely represented. Usually they have to sport a tan at least. If they have more Eurocentric facial features, then Eurocentric beauty standards apply as she is appealing to the larger community, but if the woman is light skinned and has more Afrocentric features, she faces the uphill battle of people thinking she has colorism privileges because she is light (Even though medium toned complexions are far more popular) and discrimination because she has more Afrocentric features as well. I’ve actually conducted experiments with facial features (Yes I studied social psychology and anthropology so these issues interest me) and have taken a broad featured darker skinned woman (more Afrocentric beauty) and a light skinned thin featured woman (more Eurocentric beauty) and digitally created all the facial features possible in between them from medium complexions and medium width phenotypes to light skinned faces with broad features, to dark skinned faces with thin features to combined broad and thin features with all three skin tones. In controlled tests of peoples tastes (you see two images, and you choose one, then you go to the next, same thing) Overall the medium complexioned medium ranged facial featured women always got the most hits) So obviously colorism does play a role, but so does facial structure biases, and the ones that are getting the most attention are not the lightest, but the medium complexioned looks with medium features.
Sad, but that is the way perception is today. Personally, I find beauty in all skin color ranges and facial structure ranges. And hopefully with time these biases will diminish and disappear. “
I am well aware of the exploitation of Chattel slavery and its evils. And the people who perpetuated it are not the people alive today. So you still don’t have a valid point.
LMAO. The Catholic Church started Chattel slavery? What a fool. Arabs started their slave trade around the time of Christ. Way before the Catholic Church even existed.
LOL. Sorry bub, I debate with intelligent Black men all the time. I don’t waste my time with meat heads such as yourself. You obviously are frustrated and your post shows it. I am not afraid of expressing my opinion in the face of anyone. But as a lawyer, I am not going to actively pursue a confrontation that could affect my career; I wouldn’t risk a fight with a moron. I live in Decatur. Good luck driving around trying to find me. Internet bravado is always entertaining.
Comment by Salsassin on 25 March 2009:
Ooops wrong thread. I was cutting and pasting an old post from here elsewhere. Sorry.
Comment by Belle on 6 April 2009:
Just in america that race is such a big thing!You guys should go around the world and have a look into the world cause this whole thing is pretty silly…
kisses from Brasil
Comment by NOPLAYER on 6 April 2009:
Belle you have a good point.
I believe that people should travel more and see different parts of the world. I think here in Europe and in South America and they are not as hung up about IR relationships.
I have been to parts of the Middle East and Asia where they have such deep rooted traditions and where they arrange marriages, so IR is not too common in those parts of the world.
America and her issues with race is a problem that goes back a few centeries and you wont change centeries over night.
Hopefully as the younger generation of Americans get out and see the world they see that the world is not all blk and wht.
Comment by snickawinn on 12 May 2009:
I admit I was shocked when I saw a few of these women reveal their ethnicity, but not with most of them. I am African American, Native American, Irish on mom’s side and straight African on my father’s side. Although I am dark and all of my other family members and siblings on mom’s side are light-skinned, I have never been confused about who I was other than not knowing the African people on my father’s side. I was brought up in Catholic schools so there were always children of other races. I have always loved every culture, and I can honestly say that I have only been discriminated against (to my face) a few times. I mostly date white men so I have occasionally gotten other black people ask why I only seem to date white. I tell them it is because they are the only men who approach me for some reason. I love men of all races and even have 2 black children. WHen I have gone on job interviews, I never walked into a room thinking I had my color working against me. I just always stayed true to myself and shown people what I can offer as a person with intelligence. It has always worked for me. I am successful with my own day spa, and plenty of high-class white clients who treat me as a normal human being and in some cases, friend.
It’s unfortunate how we still have to worry about things like this in this day and age, especially with so many mixed-raced people and interracial couples around the world. Until things change, I will still do my part. Unless you, individually give me a reason to not like you, I will.
Comment by TJ on 25 June 2009:
WTF Dude… Ur Not Even Black Nor Do You Have A True Experience Of How It Feels 2 Be Seen As A African Decendent So How Can You Say How They Feel Or Why Many Of THem Dont Want 2 B Seen As Black(African)!!!! In My Eyes You look Straight Up WHITE( Caucasuian) …………… But Any Way…
Black Is Beautiful, Hispanic is Beautiful, Asian Is Beautiful, White Is Beautiful, Native Is Beautiful, ETC All Of These Races and Cultures Have Their Share Of Problems & Differences &
As You All Say
” Most Dominicans Deny Their Black Ancestry”
And 4 That Quote…. Who Said that Thay Had 2 b black if they dont wanna b black then o well let them be who they wanna because regardless of who they wanna be The African Decending Humans On This Earth Still Will Embrace their Culture Regardless Who Likes it Or Not!!!
Comment by Salsassin on 25 June 2009:
LOL. Where you talking to me?
I speak of Afrodescendant experience from my experience AND from the experience of living with part of my family that is Afrodescent and show it in their features. LOL. Experience can be indirect. PLus, all Afrodescendants don’t look “Black”. So don’t assume looking “Black” is the only Afrodescendant expereince.
Most Dominicans do not deny their African ancestry. They just don’t see themselves by Black trumps all standards.