Black women and marriage – Who will tell the truth?
It is easier to cast black women as undesirable – too educated, too black, too … you know those names you keep calling them. But have you ever stopped to analyze the stats? Generally, marriage in the US has considerably dropped for every race … not just for the black woman.
The marriage rate for African Americans has been dropping since the 1960s, and today, we have the lowest marriage rate of any racial group in the United States. In 2001, according to the U.S. Census, 43.3 percent of black men and 41.9 percent of black women in America had never been married, in contrast to 27.4 percent and 20.7 percent respectively for whites. African American women are the least likely in our society to marry. In the period between 1970 and 2001, the overall marriage rate in the United States declined by 17 percent; but for blacks, it fell by 34 percent …
So I guess its safe to say that we are all doomed. Lemme look at this critically:
Find your soulmate on AfroRomance
When I look around, I get to see most black women are single … not alone though. Just single. There is a difference. These women are healthy and wealthy and have boyfriends, friends with benefits, partners or whatever you would like to call them. But when it comes to walking down the aisle, there seems to be an issue … especially for the high-powered, financially stable, well educated black women. Something is holding her back maybe …
May be in the 21st century, most sisters are battling with the thoughts for or against getting married. Maybe circumstances have put marriage out of reach. And as Baz Luhrman puts it in is free (to wear sunscreen)' :
Maybe you’ll marry, maybe you won’t,
Maybe you’ll have children, maybe you won’t,
Maybe you’ll divorce at 40,
Maybe you’ll dance the funky chicken on your 75th wedding anniversary…
What ever you do, don’t congratulate yourself too much or berate yourself either
– your choices are half chance, so are everybody else’s.
So just because your race's stats look much better, or just because you got married, maybe its just luck. I don't know. Take me for example: When I was in my 20s, I was in no hurry to get married. I mean, who was to do all the travelling, take classes, build my career, date and date and date…? Those were the days when being single was the life and I wouldn’t trade it for the world. It was a choice I had made; not to wait for Prince Charming. Now, I do want to get married. And I just can't seem to get all those men who used to propose to me in my 20s - when I was least interested - to do it now. Maybe the choice to get married is half chance after all.
Forgetting the stereotypical excuses we coin to try and explain why most black women aren’t married; like lack of good black men, black women are too picky or too mean, I need to find out exactly what the black woman thinks about marriage … from her point of view. Others are also welcome to tell us what they think, but count me out if you step on a sista’s toes ;-) .
Instead of saying black women can’t get married, maybe we should ask: Do black women really want to get married? Are the single ones single by choice or is the choice to get married really ‘half chance’ as Baz Luhrman puts it?
***HAVE A GREAT 2009 FILLED WITH MUCH LOVE AND HAPPINESS - RIA***
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270 responses to "Black women and marriage – Who will tell the truth?"
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laugh_sailor says:Posted: 20 Jan 09cdhill - Beautifully articulated post - Thanks and I strongly agree with your emphasis and almost all you've said. The two things I'd like to comment on are: "Men as a group (or any subset of men) can not impact any individual woman’s conscious decision to get married or unintentional decision to remain single." I think the attitude of maintaining control in all aspects of our decisions you espouse is terrific but few are that self-aware and have that strong an ego. We do stereotype people and both men and women, in various subsets strongly impact our conscious and subconscious decisions throughout our lives - It's a shortcut that allows us to make easier decisions. It's particularly evident in dating - Go to a girl's night out and just listen - It's amazing how stereotyped behaviors and attitudes come out and I've heard precisely the same thing from gals about guys. Often we're too close to see what we're doing and the most extreme examples of this are bigots, who only see outward characteristics and not only don't see the people in front of them but deny their essential selves. I think this problem picks up racial tones of all types naturally - It is essentially one of deciding to not look at race as a deciding factor but one that has otherwise hidden benefits that focuses us in understanding other people's views on race so we can accept it and grow: Black women's dating encompasses interracial dating, after all. Your attitude is wonderful and I am looking forward to much more of it with our new President.
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cdhill says:Posted: 20 Jan 09
mlt35 is exactly right. Statistically, why are the percentages down for black women getting married? mlt35 wrote: "African American women do not just jump at the first guy that comes along with a ring..." and then she wrote: "why in the world would we be out there dating men who tell you that they do not want commitment?" Simply put: If you are deciding to turn down proposals, (for whatever reason) the numbers go down. Additionally, if you are deciding to waste time with a man who is never going to marry you, you are missing other opportunities to be with a man who would. As a result the numbers go down. Men as a group (or any subset of men) can not impact any individual woman's conscious decision to get married or unintentional decision to remain single. "women are in control of how men treat us black, white , or other" (mlt 35, you go girl!) I would add... Women are in control of the expectations they set for a man. Women are in control of the behaviors they accept from a man. And by default, women through their decisions, control the statistical trends regarding marriage. One more thing. I refuse to accept that its a race issue. To me, when women say that the answer to this question is a race issue (black men this, white men that), they are saying that it's easier to blame race than to take personal responsibility for the decisions that are in their control. Want the statistics to rise? 1. Stop fooling with knuckle-heads. 2. Discover the reasons men aren't proposing and correct them. 3. When you get a proposal say "YES!" In short, be personally responsible.
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mlt35 says:Posted: 20 Jan 09Lala2qz Thank you for seeking a forum where black single ladies can dialogue about men and relationships. Glad to hear that you appreciate my comments. I also appreciate yours...I like your wit:)
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mlt35 says:Posted: 20 Jan 09
Big C As you say, you do not show your face because this site is not really for you...If the site is not for you them perhaps you should observe from the side lines and try to learn what black men need to do in order to attract some black women back to you and not be so quick to comment .....especially in a negative way. Your experience is just that your experience, like mine, no need to respond negatively to what is our reality everyday that we wake up and go to bed black and deal with the challenges that come with this fact. All others The Blog was for those that seek one another interracial couples.....oh yeah I date whomever I love, black, white, spanish, asian, etc. The man is what counts, but in my living and work environment I rarely ever run into black men so I date outside of my race alot, as a result of my circumstance primarily but being truthful, and as you know this is the only way we grow, I do enjoy a man who automatically opens my door, automatically comes to the date with a card or flowers or candy to say you are special, or just being really into me, not trying to play alot of supposedly desperate women against themselves....because bottom line ....women are in control of how men treat us black, white , or other. We also have to take responsibility for this fact and self reflect and then simply correct our wrongs as well. If we desire commitment in a relationship with a man then why in the world would we be out there dating men who tell you that they do not want commitment? That is insane! He is not qualified to even date you. Let him date other women who also want a casual relationship. We will not change HIM, but have to change the criteria for attracting a commitment minded man. Stop sending men the wrong signals. Say one thing and then do another.......Men will test you, if you say you want commitment the overwhelming majority will not take this on face value whether they are really interested in you or not. They will typically try to have the milk without buying the cow....make them buy the cow or get the milk from someone else. If/When a man starts to disrespect you with actions, words or both immediately stop communication, otherwise you send the signal that he can disrespect you....he just did. Happy Inauguration Day!!!! Proof that belief really does determine reality! Amen All praise and honor to Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
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Big.C says:Posted: 20 Jan 09
mlt35 I have no commitment issues, I would love to be married (but I never proposed). I know as a black woman it seem like there more good black women then man.., but many time they come with a lot of baggage, from before they were good. I don't show my face, because, this site is not really for me. " where love is more than skin deep" but that is not true, most of the people here don't even believe that. They only want someone white, but they are black, someone black be they are white. P.S. I ONLY DATE BLACK WOMEN!
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mlt35 says:Posted: 20 Jan 09
No Player I had a vision this morning about which black man in this group would step up to the plate FIRST and issue some realness to the black me on this blog and I thought that you would be the first and guess what.....? When I just logged on I am reading your message. Thank you!! A real brother at last.....not angry, not bitter, not finger pointing at women that you do not know, and will probably never meet, but tender with a heart and mind toward TRUTH and reconciliation toward positive, open and oh yeah did I say ....POSITIVE dialogue between black women and black men. You're my hero....for the day! Yippie. Remember....belief determines reality.:)
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VA_SongBird says:Posted: 19 Jan 09OOdon, you wrote: As a non-degree-holding Black man, the point about education is a troubling one to me. I love to read and learn, however, I have no college degree. Sometimes, I am shamed by that fact... Comment: There are many men whom have found their nitch and success in this world without a college degree. To name a few Michael Dell and Bill Gates. Somehow they were able to find wives. God has given every human a unique gift. Sometimes, it just takes time to recognize it. I think it is important to remember, at the end of the day, we are not marrying a resume, but a person. A resume only tells me what you claim you are qualified to do, but it does not tell me anything about your character.
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NOPLAYER says:Posted: 19 Jan 09vt33 I wouldn't say because sisters are busy climbing the ladder of sucess that they don't want marriage. I know sucessful women who want to be married but some have their reasons for staying single. Sad to say it, alot of men seem to think that sucessful women don't want to be married and that belief alone could hinder alot of men from even trying to get to know and start relationships with these women. That perception alone does it's fair share of damage. I wont try to explain why sucessful sisters are single or choose not to marry, I'll leave that explaination to them but I will issue a challenge to us as men . Let's strive to do away with this belief that sucessful sisters don't want to be married or headed towards it. These women want more than a career, they want companionship, as one sister told me, " I'm on a laptop all day at work and I don't want to curl up with one when I get home". My best friend Kim told me that she would dread 4pm on Fridays because as people were getting ready to leave work they'd ask her what were her plans for the weekenand she wouldn't have no plans to tell them about. She told me she really had to take a serious look at herself when she noticed her admin asst always had cards and flowers coming to her desk and her weekends were always filled Kim is very attractive, well educated, and a home owner but she was single and 35 years old. To make a long story short she's now married and expecting her first child thanks to the security guard that worked in the same office building having the gutts to asker her out after walking her to her car a few times. As men I think we get caught up in not feeling that we're good enough for these women but save your self some time and gray hair and focus on giving the very thing her soul hungers for. What is it that her soul hungers for??????? These women hunger for companionship they want someone to be there. It's good to come home to someone other than the cat or the dog! These women want someone they can talk to, someone to share their hopes and dreams, most could care less to talk about how they enrich their employers but they all desire to enrich their own lives with a loving and caring man they can confied in. Men stop worrying about what you can't give them and try your best to give what you have, ie your attention, your time, and if nothing else, give them " REALNESS" ! These women are around fake shit from 9-5 / Mon - Fri and you would be surprised how well they'll take to someone who's real in their deeds and their words. Men be truthful !! When you're truthful it shows self confidence and your ability to trust. When you're upfront and truthful it shows her you value her feelings and you trust that she wont judge you. Be persistant !! Don't give up so easy, if she turns you down today fine, ask her next week but if she threatens you with mase and a beat down from her brothers and cousins, leave well enough alone nobody likes a stalker ! ( LOL ) vt33 these women know the ladder of sucess can only reach so high but the the love and satisfaction that come a wholesome and loving relationship is endless.
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vt33 says:Posted: 19 Jan 09Well hot damn! Noplayer I dig your thoughts, and thank you! It's very refreshing to see there are black men who are willing to "stay together", yet I don't know when and how black women have been analyzed, poked and probed like commong lab mice to get statistics, behavior patterns and all this documented in study guides and journals. Who knew!!!! Perhaps Noplayer at some point men and women will get it toghether and take that sentiment and run with it. Yet I still can't get past the reality that a lot of black women are busy climbing the ladder of success and simply not wanting marriage. Later
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mlt35 says:Posted: 19 Jan 09
No Player. Thank you for your tender, positive words toward this topic. I agree with you and respect that there are some black men who actually "get it", some others never will. Belief determines reality.
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mlt35 says:Posted: 19 Jan 09
Salsera77 Amen....QUALITY men who, as I write on my profile as well who can SHOW me his heart is what many QUALILTY single ladies desire. Kudos. I do not know about you all but nice to have some added elements of c-r-e-a-m to enhance the coffee flavor ( credit to salsassin:):) Remember....belief determines reality!!!!!!!!!
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mlt35 says:Posted: 18 Jan 09
Big C. Please for one minute do not think that I am not married because I have not had proposals, quite the contrary my dear.....please.....ever thought that like men, African American women do not just jump at the first guy that comes along with a ring......It is not about the wedding but the enduring journey of the marriage. Are the two of you really compatible, values, backgrounds, common needs etc.? If you had read all of my comments on this blog you would not have made such an ill informed personal attack....you do not even show your face! A better question is ....why are you not married?....Commitment issues? Remember....belief determines reality!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No
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homesteader says:Posted: 18 Jan 09
Recognition , We all desire to grow older . That being lifes dream . My true grandson just turned 13 .
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salsera77 says:Posted: 18 Jan 09
Speaking of breaking negative unfeminine stereotypes of black women that may thwart non black males from seeking relationships with black females. I love what Italian Vogue did in it's all Black Women's Model July ‘08 issue. I wish I could get my hands on a copy of it....but they can't keep it in stock. – Blasted! See Video http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/25569830#25569830 I found and interesting Blog / FAQ regarding this present subject/blog and I posted some but not all of it here. I didn’t post the part regarding black men as it’s pretty controversial & long but feel free to go there and read it for yourself if you want. http://bfinterracialmarriage.blogspot.com/ 7. Why don’t you encourage more white men to approach or date black women? My blog started out with me talking about my relationship and marriage to a white man. Most of the folks who wrote to me were black women, so I concluded that my audience was primarily black women. I never advocated for white men to approach black women because my blog wasn’t geared to white men. I think that’s another blog altogether. If it had been my intent to do that, I’d have gone about it in an entirely different way. I’ve lately come to realize that some black women WANTED me to encourage white men to ask them out and got upset with me because I didn’t do that. First, let me say that I wouldn’t imagine that I have a pipeline to white men. Secondly, those women can write that type of blog themselves or set up a site. I’ve already done that (years ago) and this is why I KNOW that there are many white men out there who want to date black women. I once co-moderated a yahoo mailing list like that—geared to men of ALL types who admired and were attracted to black women, and most of the men or people who came to that site were white men. 13. But aren’t bw causing their marriage dilemma with their “bad attitudes” and other “issues?” I think this "attitude" thing is mostly a lot of hype. There are women in every group who have “issues.” All people have issues. The mental health industry in the U.S. is a multi-billion dollar industry that is kept financially afloat by overwhelmingly the “issues” of non-black people. So that proves to me that it’s certainly not mainly AA women with “issues.” We ALL have issues of some sort and trust--those non-black people take their issues into relationships. I'm happy that my husband loves me despite my "issues," and likewise, I love him despite his. I’ve mingled with enough white and African women who have “issues,” (unpleasant attitudes, non-nurturing, shallow/superficial, won’t even attempt to cook or clean, argumentative, spend money like running water, morally defective, etc.) yet they’re still sought after for relationships and marriage. So why should AA women with similar "issues" be penalized for having these so-called unmarriageable “issues” when many women from other groups are not excluded by men from their group for dating and marriage? 1. What do you mean when you say that African-American (AA) women must broaden their dating and mating options to include ALL men in the global village? Considering the approximately 45% of AA women who are at and above marriage age who have never married--and there are no indicators showing they’re headed toward marriage to AA men-- it’s obvious that AA women must include non-AA men and non-black men in their dating and marriage pool IF they seriously desire marriage. Keep in mind, I’m only talking about women who seriously WANT to get married. The rest of you should not read any further. LOL! I put a lot of emphasis on MARRIAGE. I believe that if a man claims he’s committed to a relationship with a woman, he should also commit legally and in every way possible. Otherwise, I know I couldn’t fully trust him. Maybe you can and maybe you do, but if that piece of paper is “not a big deal,” as I’ve heard some men and women claim, then why not get the piece of paper? That’s just my belief. 2. Why do you focus so much on white men? I see white men as "men" primarily just like I see any type of man. Secondly, I stress that black women should only date and marry QUALITY men of whatever skin shade. In the United States where I am, white men are the bulk of the men—period--in many black women’s environment, so if a black woman is simply looking for a loving QUALITY man, she needs to look at ALL men of QUALITY and not limit her scope in any way. From small town to big city and all points in between, whites make up the bulk of the population of the country. If you are going to go fishing looking for a certain type of fish and it's known that more of every type of fish is in the ocean, then it just makes more sense to me to fish in the ocean rather than in a puddle—that is, if you’re serious about catching QUALITY fish. However, if you’re a puddle-fisher, that’s your business. 3. Doesn’t this mean that some AA women regard white men as 2nd choice since it seems you’re saying they’re dating and marrying white men because they don’t or can’t numerically get a black man.? In 2008, why would an AA woman be primarily looking for an AA man—in the first place? Probability-wise, according to all of the stats out there, the numbers don’t support that type of search if QUALITY is a major criteria for her. Also, is a typical QUALITY AA man “primarily” or exclusively looking for an AA woman for long-term commitment and marriage? Even IF all or most of these men were, the numbers of marriageable AA men (those able to meet the challenges of life) looking for a black woman do not support the bulk of black women holding out for an AA man. I always look at probabilities, but she could get lucky. It may 'seem' that I’m saying that white men are a second choice, but I’m not—AT ALL. I also am not saying that white men are the only QUALITY men. White men simply represent a LOT of “additional” men to consider. I’ve said so many times that when I wanted to re-marry, I considered ALL loving, QUALITY men who were interested in me and my white husband was the first loving, lovable, suitable, and compatible QUALITY man who asked me to marry him. If I’d met a loving, lovable, suitable, and compatible black man, Hispanic, Asian, etc. of QUALITY first, who asked me to marry him, I’d be with him. So, I can’t speak for every black woman IR blogger out there, but to me white men are NOT second choice. All QUALITY men are or should be FIRST choice. I personally never even considered non-QUALITY men. However, when you consider the racist history of the U. S. and the way in which MOST black women have been methodically socialized and conditioned to regard black men as their ONLY mating choice and considering that the residential patterns are still governed by race in many cases, these are the MAIN reasons why SOME (though a decreasing number) black women still proclaim, “nothing but a black man!” Yes, in some cases there IS and/or would be a preference for a black man or a white man. And there would be even if racism had never existed. However, if slavery and Jim Crow, and racism had never existed, the largest percentage of men and women would be marrying each other naturally, regardless of skin shade. I’m sure we realize that. Since my blog is written from my viewpoint and that of similar minded black women-- at the end of the day, a typical black woman of our type is looking for a loving QUALITY man who will SHOW her that he loves, cherishes, and adores her. I’ve met too many of these “nothing but a black man” black women who are now dating or in contented relationships/marriages with white and other non-black men to believe that more than a handful of AA women can ONLY be happy or fulfilled by a black men. 4. Why don’t you point AA women toward Asian and Hispanic and other non-white men more? Asian and Hispanic men are a minority or non-existent in most places where many black women are located in the U.S. Also, of the much smaller numbers of Asian and Hispanic men in the general population, many of this small number are not interested in AA women for marriage due to cultural, political, colorism/aesthetic, and/or other reasons.
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Salsassin says:Posted: 18 Jan 09
lala2qz, Sorry, I got distracted by the beauty in your picture. That is considered a foul in debate land. Like the opposing attorney getting all dolled up and striking a Beyonce pose. :) J/P. My response was more towards the other ladies who were claiming exclusivity, but were quoting you. I really didn't have a problem with your last posts. :) I am glad we added pieces to the bigger equation. I understood you clearly. (But I am tempted to write an essay....) laugh_sailor, Thanks for the stats to clarify. Your best bet is to visit your local university where you can pull them all for free in JSTOR. homesteader said: "Now I shall leave this site to the children to play / Behave . Old man going to take a nap ." G'night Gramps.
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homesteader says:Posted: 18 Jan 09
Who better to have an opinion about how a Black Ladie feels about marriage , than the Man who married her .
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homesteader says:Posted: 18 Jan 09
Please do not allow , the long winded child attitude to tire you . I was invited to speak and my wife being Black , Along with us getting married . Places me in a three times is a Charm Situation , I thank you Ladies for reading my words on this topic . Now I shall leave this site to the children to play / Behave . Old man going to take a nap . Remember to wash your hands .
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laugh_sailor says:Posted: 18 Jan 09
Salsassin - Thank you for your clear, solid and insightful thoughts. Having a professional in the field we're blogging is a godsend and you have raised the conversation significantly. I particularly appreciate the research you reference - The scope of this problem is, if anything, worse than anecdotally mentioned in these blogs (eg. In 1991, 54% of African American children were raised in single-mother households, with 65% of them in poverty, as opposed to 19% of children raised in poverty by two-parent households and 19% of Caucasian children raised in single-mother households, with 54% of them in poverty:* An impetus for the unrealistic income standards many black women have in dating.). I am finding the papers cited, as well as others... but only the table of contents and a brief summary. I've found some research available... for significant subscription costs. Do you have any suggestions for further in-depth reading (preferably online)? Thanks in advance. * McLoyd, V. C., & Jozefowicz, D. M. H. (1996). Sizing up the future: Predictors of African American adolescent females' expectancies about their economic fortunes and family life course.
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lala2qz says:Posted: 18 Jan 09
I stated that she mentioned others were welcome to comment if they want as well. Geeeez don't write an essay, lol. I got your point and pretty sure I mentioned in an earlier post that certain things stated could be more open to other responses. But I was very much more interested in the black ladies opinion is all, and Ria particularly pointed out that she wanted that too. Even though I do appreciate the others because it fixes the puzzle of a bigger equation. but overall, my focus was on the black ladies opinions, whether or not they represent the vast majority. So, the article as a whole, is surely open to all... but I simply mentioned that Ria made a clear target. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Ehhhh.. doesnt matter. I'm just gonna end it with the fact that I understand what you were trying to say. So Salsassin please don't reply with a book, let's leave this at this. :) anywho... I simply wish the bickering could end, but I didn't feel you were directly attacking me in the first place. cdhill maybe, because I felt he took my words out of context. And I only like to be called sister by women, regardless of color. I definitely don't call black guys 'brothas' Oh, back to Cdhill.. Cdhill, yes I've got jokes, lol. lots. But, on another note, I don't know much about ghettos but the few people I've met from one were very discouraging. But I believe that some pretty ethical people could come from one as well no? Do you think coming from one has influenced how you are towards women or your views on commitment and marriage in a negative way?
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Salsassin says:Posted: 18 Jan 09
CDHill, thanks for pointing out the blatant fallacy that a few of these women are committing. I say a few, because many others have shown a lot more intelligence in reading the article. Lala, you pointed out one fact out of many. My criticism wasn't directed at you as much as some of the fluff brains on here who think flatulence is an example of great commentary. Ria's first point:"But have you ever stopped to analyze the stats?" Begs the question, Go look at the stats and see if you agree with me. I already stated I didn't, because even though marriage is down in all groups, it is statistically much lower in the African American female community. So there has to be other factors, either from within the Black female community itself (changing perceptions unique to Black women) or from changes in exterior influences. I could just as easily point out that most women commenting on this board are not representative of most Black women in the US as they are seeking to date interracially, and many do so exclusively. The vast majority of Black women in the US do not have this mentality, so they aren't the norm either. I mean, if people want to argue semantics and strawmen, I can pull out a ton of them. Instead, lets look at what Ria really proposed and what debates it entices. I already pointed out she called into question the stat evidence, making it a subject of discussion. Here next important commentary: "When I look around, I get to see most black women are single … not alone though. Just single. There is a difference. These women are healthy and wealthy and have boyfriends, friends with benefits, partners or whatever you would like to call them. But when it comes to walking down the aisle, there seems to be an issue." That begs the second question.: How many Black women are single and happy to be single. Happy to have friends with benefits, happy to have boyfriends without ever moving forward to marriage? Obviously, the norm in this message board would be, not many, as most are actively seeking marriage material outside their ethnicity because they didn't find it within their ethnicity. But they aren't the norm of Black American women. So that is a question that has not really been answered on this board. It would be interesting to see if any surveys have been done within the larger African American female community. Ria proposes a lot of "maybes and states she doesn't know. SO the factors could be internal or external. She clearly asks for the Black woman's opinions, I agree with that: "I need to find out exactly what the black woman thinks about marriage … from her point of view. Others are also welcome to tell us what they think, but count me out if you step on a sista’s toes ;-) ." But she clearly states others are also welcome, but if they incur the wrath of a sistah, they are on their own. Guess what, I have been dealing with sistahs since childhood, so I have no problem being on my own when I step on a few sistahs, brothahs, or white boys and white gorls toes. I am an equal opportunity stomper of retarded people's commentaries. For those who like intellectual conversations and/or debates I always offer my utmost respect. Notice that CdHill and I have disagreed many times, but always with respect. Same with a few of the Black women who have posted early on which I have continued dialogue on the PM side. I don't claim to have the answers. Just adding my food for thought to the discussions. An interesting study was done by King, et al, in 2007: "Personal characteristics of the ideal African American marriage partner: A survey of adult black men and women" Journal of Black Studies It showed that the vast majority of Black males and females were seeking partners that made significantly more than themselves. Is this study significant? I don't know, but it does add the factor that many people may be avoiding marriage because their income expectations are just unrealistic in the dating pools they are frequenting. Here is one study that might be a little bit more on the money, at least for women who are in the higher income braquets (it wouldn't be as applicable to women in lower income echelons) http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-05202004-134823/unrestricted/contents.pdf "Understanding how young high functioning African American Women perceive marriage and their thoughts about remaining Single" Linda lee allen-benton, Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, 2004 Two other studies that might bring some light to the question are: African American Females’ attitudes Toward Marriage, Anthony King - Journal Of Black Studies, 1999 and “Do men “need” a spouse more than women?: perceptions of the importance of marriage for men and women” by G Kaufman, F Goldscheider - Sociological Quarterly, 2007 The second study seems to indicate that there is definitely a gender difference. " We find that both men and women feel that men need to be married more than women do. Women are more likely than men to think that both men and women can have satisfying lives without marriage, but they are also more likely to think that only women can have satisfying lives without marriage. Younger, more educated people are less likely to emphasize marriage. On the other hand, religious people and those who are married with children are particularly likely to think that neither men nor women can have satisfying lives without marriage." The question would be if there is something else (it sure sounds like there is) that is exacerbating this gender difference and is causing an overall marriage drop across both genders in the African American community. What, that cannot be explained just by overall gender disparities is causing an overall drop of marriage within the African American community. And again, I suspect more women on this board are probably middle to upper middle class income ($30,000 or above)with some college education, while the majority of African American women are not. So even comments from Black women would not always be on the money as to attitudes by the majority of Black women that are experiencing different choices than them. On a side note, VA Song Bird, I'm sorry it just is way over your head. It is obvious even a simple explanation will elude you.
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Big.C says:Posted: 18 Jan 09
coffee77 and mlt35 If white men are so great and nice and tender, why are you two not marry? The hate you have for the black men in your past, have blinded you both! You must give love to get love, if hate black men you hate yourself!
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VA_SongBird says:Posted: 18 Jan 09
lala2qz thanks for being a "breath of fresh air". You are correct, you only stated the "facts". It is in writing for anyone to read whether your comprehension level is at K-1 or Post Doctorate (Did I cover everyone here?). Unfortunately, it is clear there are few individuals whom are only interested in hearing themselves talk. The subject, the subject matter and The FACTS are of least importance to this blog.
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VA_SongBird says:Posted: 18 Jan 09
lala2qz thanks for being a "breath of fresh air". You are correct, you only stated the "facts". It is in writing for anyone to read. Unfortunately, it is clear there are few individuals whom are only interested in hearing themselves talk. The subject, the subject matter and The FACTS are of least importance to this blog.
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cdhill says:Posted: 18 Jan 09
lol. I read the blog again. I guess I just don't see where Ria said this was a question for the sisters only. I see you have jokes. :) Yes, I am from the ghetto. Where the streets are filled with uneducated, lazy, criminal, irresponsible black men and promiscuous, overweight, angry and (let's not forget) single black women. Ahhhh Home...
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lala2qz says:Posted: 18 Jan 09
I merely pointed out the FACT that Ria particularly asked the black women. I was interested in that particular opinion as well, cause as a half black woman I know my limitations on the subject, I know that I don't experience and go through some of the same things. Hmmmm... Cdhill, just wondering, are you from a ghetto? why do black guys commit so much crime? You've stolen something before right? lol. i kid, i kid.
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cdhill says:Posted: 18 Jan 09
So the logic my sisters are arguing is, if we wanted to explore why crime rates were going up (or down), the only way to do that would be to exclusively talk criminals. You couldn't talk to law enforcement about the crime rate because they aren't "living the life of a lawbreaker." Nor you could gain anything from speaking with victims because they are of the "non criminal" persuasion. And psychologists, lawyers, criminologists, economists or other experts must be ignored because "they could not know more about this topic than the wrongdoers." So for the moment, setting aside any discussion of solutions: Marriage rates for African American women are decreasing. Because African American women are the group so adversely affected, only African American women are the only qualified to speak on the topic. non sequitur. Salsassin, In this venue, that fallacy is going to be difficult to overcome as the original premise has been backstopped with it. And on top of that, now you've got a straw man with a race card in his pocket. lol
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Salsassin says:Posted: 18 Jan 09
diva ”salsassin your a races you dont know what your talking about calling people bums don't know them .and you should not be on this site you need to be on another site for what ever race you want. Ria you should read comments and stop people like salsassin from being on this site making comments of hate.” LOL. First, learn to type, then to express yourself coherently. Feel free to show one comment of hate I have made. VA_SongBird ”Salsassin , as a Black Female, I have never needed a male to explain to me the dynamics of being black or a single female. It has never once crossed my mind. Therefore, you comments have not revolutionize my thinking or changed my life at all.” Entertaining. Not once have I tried to claim that I knew what dynamics of being a Black female or a single female where. But I did state that Black females where not the only ones that could talk about what might affect the dating pool of Black females, nor where Black females the only ones that could talk about being single females. Sorry if you think education is threatening. Personally, I find it is usually those with insecurities of their own that fear commentary from others no matter the education. I don’t attack others until they make ad hominems, or prejudice comments. Sorry if you are too self-absorbed to think you live in a vacuum and other’s opinions do not affect you. Keep on amusing me with your assumptions that I frequent dating sites, in the first place. I hang out in multicultural sites. This blog focuses on why Black women are marrying less. Either from internal effects, such as your choices, external effects such as choices of Black males, and non-Black males, or a combination of both. And in that sense, there are some things you, by your logic, can just not talk about because you are not male. Black women are only answering half the equation, who they choose, and only based on each limited perspective. It doesn’t mean every Black woman is fully aware of national trends. Or why their selection pool is the way it is. And in that area, there are many people who can contribute to give a better perspective. Not just one person, or one group of people. The whole essay dealt with stats and how the author doesn’t agree with some of them. Then she posts a final thought that MAYBE will point to an answer: “Do black women really want to get married? Are the single ones single by choice OR is the choice to get married really ‘half chance’ as Baz Luhrman puts it?” That is her opinion and we are commenting on it. First, some of the statistic trends she mentions aren’t accurate. All ethnic groups are not down in marriage in the same levels. But going back to her final posited question, some seem to ignore that the author clearly states that there are two alternatives she is seeing. She favors one, that Black women are just choosing to marry less, but she states that there another explanation, as Baz Luhrman puts it, “a half chance”. Some factor outside just the realm of Black women’s choices. And that is what we men have been discussing. Theories some of the Black women here have agreed with.
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lala2qz says:Posted: 17 Jan 09
Indeed they do, not to make an insult to statistics but the leading conclusions are always up to interpretation. I mean this question could be changed to, "Why do so many nonblack women desperately marry and live with contempt of being unhappily married or divorce? Is it because you feel better just being able to say you are married?" I mean.... everyone could leave their comment on the matter, but wouldn't you particularly want to know from some of those women why? But, I digress. I honestly don't mind others opinions, but the answers by starhai and mlt were the ones I looked for. Because to me, they as black women, could give me the answer I was seeking... because the question asked if black women want to get married, and didn't ask from a 360 degree societal point of view of technicalities. If this were a survey question, it would only be asked to black women. But the latter, the one about half chances, I do feel that can be interpreted as being more open to others however. But still, it seems to be asking black women is it because they just don't want to, or because of chances? One more thing, to completely settle this, something I felt I should post from the article: THE MAIN PURPOSE "I need to find out exactly what the black woman thinks about marriage … from her point of view." BUT NOT TO EXCLUDE ANYONE Others are also welcome to tell us what they think, but count me out if you step on a sista’s toes ;-) ."
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VA_SongBird says:Posted: 17 Jan 09
lala2qz "THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH" for so eloquently and concisely stating the purpose of this blog. I don't think it was Ria's intention to exclude anyone. However, this blog happen to focus on why Black women are chosing or not chosing to marry. It really was that simple. However, some of us, have a way of complicating the obvious.
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lala2qz says:Posted: 17 Jan 09
sorry for grammatical errors, I was in a rush. In the question about Condoleeza, it's supposed to say "Do Black women...."
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lala2qz says:Posted: 17 Jan 09
Do black women really want to get married? Are the single ones single by choice or is the choice to get married really ‘half chance’ as Baz Luhrman puts it? I think the best people suited to answer these questions(especially the former) would be black women.... you can look up all the statistics you want but that doesn't make what you say correct. I think living the life of a black woman.... you would know why better than most. In a degree, it's like asking, 'Are black women like Condoleeza Rice have a stern exterior because they are sexually frustrated?' you can do a lot of research and come to your own hypothesis that it is because of.... whatever you conclude it is in your mind. And use a ton of statistics from wikipedia to back up your claim. But, an accord, research and answers from said black women would be more fallible. I'd much rather find out if black women want to get married from black women, because they would know more about it personally, than a nonblack male.
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VA_SongBird says:Posted: 17 Jan 09
Salsassin , as a Black Female, I have never needed a male to explain to me the dynamics of being black or a single female. It has never once crossed my mind. Therefore, you comments have not revolutionize my thinking or changed my life at all. You are too impressed with yourself and you have repeatedly marginalize others through out this discussion with your superior and educated attitude. I'm in support of Diva's comments. It probably would be great if you find another blog or site, but I strongly suspect that you've probably been "blocked" from other dating sites and this is your last resort to sound and feel important.
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diva says:Posted: 17 Jan 09
salsassin your a races you dont know what your talking about calling people bums don't know them .and you should not be on this site you need to be on another site for what ever race you want. Ria you should read comments and stop people like salsassin from being on this site making comments of hate.
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Salsassin says:Posted: 17 Jan 09
First of all. Learn to pay more attention. I am male. Not a Non Black Female. Unless a Black female is engaging in a Lesbian marriage, by force, her chances of marriage, and even the option to choose to marriage is half out of her hands and half in the hands of the male species. Therefore, the topic is relevant to all Black males who consider dating Black females or who choose not to date them. Non Black Females also have a valid opinion in respect to comparing what the Black woman is saying with her own experience, to see if it is a female issue or a Black female issue only. They can also express their opinions as to secondary evidence of men who have dated Black women and now date them, or of men who dated them and now date Black women. All opinions can give a small piece of the puzzle and should not just be written off.
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VA_SongBird says:Posted: 17 Jan 09
I don't think this blog was intended to be a trick. The intention of the subject is quite clear to many. If you wish to be technical, I fully agree,there is no specific language which excludes any other individual who is of "none black female" persuasion from commenting. However, please be thoroughly convinced that statistical data and contrasting your experiences as a Non black female will never take precedence over "being" a Black Female who has lived this issue out on a practical level.
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Salsassin says:Posted: 17 Jan 09
homesteader, the questions of the blog address Black women and marriage. Perception about them, choices that they make and exterior influences that affect the parameters of choices available and what choices are made. It is not just a White man, Black woman question. It is a Black women and men who have ever considered dating a Black woman in general question. So all those people play a role in the question. And others outside that group can still comment by contrasting their experiences to that of those in question. But you keep seeking permission. :)
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Salsassin says:Posted: 17 Jan 09
To starthai: I could care less how logic works “in your book”. Your claims as to how solid your understanding was of what I posted is meaningless if you do not address the claims per se instead of trying to assign motive to the posts. Maybe a class in logic might help you. Yours was a classic “appeal to motive.” Now you are trying to make a “style over substance” argument. But you have yet to actually address any of my points and state where they where inaccurate. ALL hypotheses have some element of subjectivity as they come from a person’s experiences and how they apply that knowledge to the task at hand. You can still try to be as unbiased as possible. You could careless what type of degree/s someone has, because you are not easily impressed as an undergraduate pre-med student. You don’t even have a bachelor’s yet. To claim that you are studying a prep program to get you to med school doesn’t mean you have been accepted yet. I knew plenty of pre-law students that never went to school. Both my parents are doctors. Your “appeal to authority” was quite weak. I mock you because of what you chose to argue with. Strawmen. When you actually choose to argue the issue, you may impress. To homesteader: I see elder bums in life all the time. People who never learned to grow up. Your age means nothing if you can’t present a logical, relevant comment. You sound like a blown out flower child from another era that tried a bit too many products with your disjointed comments. I would tell you this, no matter what age you had. But out of respect for your age I kept quiet. Until you were foolish enough to attack me for something completely irrelevant to the discussion.’ I am glad you found happiness with your wife. That is your experience. That is not the experience of many women in the world, and we are discussing what some trends may be that are causing these changes in trends. Your pithy comments have not addressed that particular question. If you learned to read a bit more carefully, you would see that I actually have quite a few posters who agreed with my explorations or saw me as being fair in them. Now wash the caca out of your brain before making claims of crap on other’s hands. To VA_SongBird: It asks the question in general. It never states that it just wants the female perspective. Don’t confuse subject matter with exclusive rights to commentary on that subject matter.
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VA_SongBird says:Posted: 17 Jan 09
Hello? It bears repeating, we need a new "blog"! Also, please review carefully the subject matter in the future before commenting and attacking individuals whom rightfully should be commenting. Subject matter was addressed to Black Women to obtain THEIR prospective on why many are not marrying. Reading really is fundamental!
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starthai says:Posted: 17 Jan 09"To starthai “When someone writes an essay for others to read it should always make sense.” Not really. A Well-written essay may still only make sense to those with the capacity to comprehend it. Some people just don’t have the education or the general understanding. An essay has to be well formatted and logically constructed, but the onus is still on the reader to be able to follow the logical path of the essay. Or point out where the fallacies in logic are. If they can’t, it is their capacity to comprehend, and not the capacity of the writer that should be called into question." Salssasin, not in my book! To succinctly respond to your quizzical remarks, my ability to fathom what I read is pretty solid. Your ready-made, paraphrased, comments on this particular topic is no new news for most people, therefore, it does nothing to expand my inventory of ideas. Secondly, how does one go about forming a "hypothesis" that is not objective. This totally makes no sense to me, maybe I need to re-read the topic, question, and who the question was aimed at or someone else needs to. I could careless what type of degree/s someone has, because I'm not easily impressed and as a undergraduate pre-med student, I observe plenty of students skating on through by kissing butt or worse when graduation day comes they end with only knowing what to think, instead of how to think. I strongly recommend the next time you get an itch to insult someones intellect, you keep in mind there will always be a multitude of different perceptions ( especially on blogs) and there is no need to mock someone that does not agree with you. To do so speaks for its self.
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VA_SongBird says:Posted: 15 Jan 09
Thanks CDHill, that's a compliment coming from you! Whew! At least I know you are not to be considered. It is clear you desperately need "attention". How many times do you have to be told "you are raining on our parade"????? This blog is not about YOU and your theories. No one is impressed. Conversation closed.
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cdhill says:Posted: 15 Jan 09
Salsassin I don't disagree with you. I think you are moderating both ends of the spectrum. And I think that's fair. Because I think the issues and the answers lie all across the spectrum. I give them such a hard time because they love to assign blame. But the squeal like stuck pigs at the hint of culpability or personal responsibility. Blaming other people is always the easiest way out. But its rarely the right answer. Carl, Dallas, Texas
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cdhill says:Posted: 15 Jan 09
lol. You say you want CREAM. YOU can't even get coffee. Perhaps you focus on just getting the cup.
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NOPLAYER says:Posted: 15 Jan 09
Ok my friend, I now understand. I wish you the best and may all you desire come your way!! James Nurnberg,Germany
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Salsassin says:Posted: 15 Jan 09
To cdhill ”In relationships people will treat other people poorly.” Some will, some won’t. “And when you are in one of those relationships and you are being treated poorly it’s very easy to rely on your perceptions and assume that because it has happened to you and (or) you have seen it happen this way more times than not, it must be the reality. But this is flawed logic.” We aren’t just talking individual subjective perceptions though. We are talking national trends and statistics. “Are rates at which black women getting married decreasing? I guess. The blog said they are.” No, the statistics are. “It is because Black women are undesirable as I asserted in my Hypothesis? No. (That sh!t was silly and I only wrote it to make a point about how statistics can be twisted to fit any scenario the author chooses.) “ Not necessarily. Some undesirability attributable to negative trends in some sub-groups and their subsequent effect in stereotyping the larger group can play a role. “Is it because Black men are non committal, spoiled, insecure or crazy? No more than any other people in the population.” Not necessarily. And that is what statistics is about. Unbiased looks at trends. The question is the reason. Why aren’t the marriage trends in other ethnicities dropping as much, in a proportional nature? Why was there a higher rate before in Afro Americana? That is what we are exploring. “A black man consecutively dates 4 black women and commits to none of them. A perception might be that he is non-committal. The reality is that for each woman there was a specific reason he did not commit.” A black man that has 4 women to date has the option and the temptation to weigh more options than the Black man who only meets one. The reality is that, at an individual level you can see many reasons, but when you look at statistical trends, and specifically large changes in trends, then you look for common factors that would affect that change. Obviously Black men (and Black women) had similar options before, but they chose to marry more often. “The other fallacy come from the woman that dates 6 black man in a row and none of them commit to her. When a man does not commit to a woman he has a reason. He may tell her. He may lie about it. He may never share it. But he has it. They may all have the same reason they did not commit to her. They may each have different reasons. But the bottom line is, nothing can be concluded about black men as a group from the experience of this woman. Her perception may be that all black men are dogs. But that is only a perception. Its not reality.” Again. If it is the experience of just one woman, you are right. Two, three women still may be individual cases. But when we detect a trend, then the explanation can’t just be that the random individual choices of males or females are the same as before. Something else has to account for the change in trends, ceteris parabus. “And it is a greater mistake to assume that any of the actions of any of the black men above translate to the group of black as a whole. To believe this is to subscribe to a type logic that would claim that “all Germans were Nazis”, or “all white people are racists” or “all American made cars are junk.”” As individuals, you are right, but we are speaking of trends. And when groups of people in Germany started acting at an alarmingly higher rate of racism than before, we could say that racism had became stronger in Germany, and when trends of racism have decreased in modern Germany we can say that racism has decreased. Obviously we can’t claim a reason for all Black men and women, but we can look at the evidence to try to figure out trends. Where certain actions done by certain groups of Black men or women have changed, or if certain groups of men and women with certain beliefs have grown larger, or if an external factor is the cause and the Black population per se has remained constant. There are definitely factors beyond random individuality. The question is what they are. ”Men are simple. And the nature of most men is this: When a man finds the women for him, the one he loves, the one he wants to commit to, there is no obstacle (short of death) that will keep him from her. And if you aren’t her? Oh Well… “ I truly recommend you buy a book on social psychology. You will realize there is a lot more at play, many times, than individual choice. I recommend Social Psychology by David G. Myers. It opened up my eyes, and you would be surprised at how much individual choice can be influenced by external influences. “And if you aren’t her over and over again, your issues are nothing that can attributed to or solved by race. And that’s not a perception. That’s reality. “ ON that, I agree. But racism can be a factor. ““Black women are not the victims here, many are single because they want to be single and some just don’t choose to marry.”” Many are. But many aren’t. And there is a statistical trend that has to be either explained by a change in women’s desires to marry, men’s desire to commit, or external factors or a combination of all three. “They are choosing to be single based in large part on their perceptions. And I’m not saying there aren’t other reasons. There probably are. But if the woman decides to take personally responsibility for situation and can figure out why she’s not the one, over and over again, her reality will change and her perceptions will follow.” So in a perfect world, with all Black men and all Black women having perfect careers, high desires to be in monogamous relationships, and all Black men marry Black women, what would be the change in responsibility that the women who are still single should take to figure out why they weren’t the ones? To starthai “When someone writes an essay for others to read it should always make sense.” Not really. A Well-written essay may still only make sense to those with the capacity to comprehend it. Some people just don’t have the education or the general understanding. An essay has to be well formatted and logically constructed, but the onus is still on the reader to be able to follow the logical path of the essay. Or point out where the fallacies in logic are. If they can’t, it is their capacity to comprehend, and not the capacity of the writer that should be called into question. To VA_SongBird ” I think we have beaten this horse enough. Ria, may I suggest another blog addressing our "European brothers" why they find women of different ethnicities desirable or appealing than their own race? “ Dunno, the horse seems to still be kicking. I think HUMANS find women appealing from all ethnicities varying with their level of acceptance of divergence in cultural traits. The question would be if your “European brothers” have an attraction across the board that is higher or lower than what would be expected if every one of these groups where European looking but with the same degree of cultural differences. I.e. would the European brothers date the Euro looking Irani girl who is Zoroastrian any quicker than they would date the Dravidian girl who is Christian? (Similarity in looks vs similarity in culture) ”Perhaps we will THEN get some "C-R-E-A-M" our coffee.” Maybe if you want cream in your coffee, the onus is on you to explain why you find that cream so appealing? To: NOPLAYER ” VA-_SongBird what do you mean by some " C-R-E-A-M in our coffee ? Cream is used to weaken coffee that's deemed too strong. I do'nt know what you mean so help me out!” Not really. Same coffee. Just an added element to enhance the flavor. Just as xocolatl was enhanced by tlilxochitl (vanilla) and necuhtli (honey/nectar) to make the original chocolate drinks.
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NOPLAYER says:Posted: 15 Jan 09
VA-_SongBird what do you mean by some " C-R-E-A-M in our coffee ? Cream is used to weaken coffee that's deemed too strong. I do'nt know what you mean so help me out!
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VA_SongBird says:Posted: 15 Jan 09
I think we have beaten this horse enough. Ria, may I suggest another blog addressing our "European brothers" why they find women of different ethnicities desirable or appealing than their own race? Perhaps we will THEN get some "C-R-E-A-M" our coffee.
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laugh_sailor What you say is true. But it doesn't make it right. And I'd submit that a person who has race woven into their decision making process (even if only to make their decisions easier) is probably a person you should think twice about dating. But now we digress...