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Civil rite denied!

Posted by Ria, 29 May

civil right deniedExpected? Shocking? The decision handed down on Tuesday by the California Supreme Court on upholding the same-sex marriage ban takes away rights of homosexual citizens in this country. Don't they pay taxes? Don't they follow laws of the land? Aren't they outstanding citizens? So why was it hard to give them their well earned fundamental right - the right to marry - by virtue of being citizens in a country they live in and support?

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Imagine if someone took away your right to marry the person of your choice ... Much as we can't equate this to interracial marriages, can you imagine what would have happened if majority white voters had decided by the proposition to ban interracial marriage?

It is a sad day in America ... Its sad that people can be given the legal and political power to just vaporize other citizens' rights away. :-(

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207 responses to "Civil rite denied!"

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  1.   ngbabe says:
    Posted: 08 Jun 09

    homosexuality is a personal preference on the part of those who engage in such behaviors. Frankly, I don't understand why people need special protection under the law strickly based on their sexual preferences. In my opinion, gays and lesbians belong to the human race and should be treated with dignity and respect---that doesn't however imply their lifestyles should be imposed on those of us with traditional values or who believe marriage to be a sacred union between a man and a woman---Can anyone please sight any historial examples where societies are forced by special interest groups (which is extaclty what the homosexual activists groups are)to re-define what they mean by marriage? Cultures in the past had/still do have differences in marriage ceremonies but marriage has always involved the union b/w men and women. I think the gay community have a political agenda that transends the need to be treated with equality and dignity---there's a message of contradiction out there from the gay community: To this writer, it's as if they're shouting "we have been made to live in closets for centuries, now it's time for straight people to try living in the closets and see how it feels". Many with traditional values are now labled haters, homophobic or other derogatory name callings. The point is, if those with traditional values are being asked to treat gays and lesbians with equality, the same rule should apply to the gay activists in order for us (all God's children)to live together amicably. Enough of the gay community's continued efforts to sholve their lifestyles down people's throats or else!!! I mean, couple of months ago, I was at the aiport with my 9yrs old and two gay men were publicly engage in explicit sexual conducts(shot of actual intercourse) as if trying to make a statement of some sort with no regard for my kid or other kids present.

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  2.   Girlstar7 says:
    Posted: 07 Jun 09

    To laugh_sailor: I respect your opinion on the issue of gay rights, but of course I will stand up and totally disagree. Some of your comments as far as them "coming out"of the closet and the other comment of "natural law"is a false label.I am sorry but? "wrong answer". First off! to say that being gay is a minority as blacks is a joke. Then to say that politics of hate in the country, WHAT HATE?.We Californians totally disagreeded and voted this lifestyle and law as unnatural.And yes, to choose God or not is a choice one must make in their life.Life is hell with out god..lol. I assume that you feel it is ok? to compare or class their struggle with the struggle of African/ African Americans from African and this country's sheer hell subjected on a good and very decent and loving strong people. Witha great history and now have lost our true identity due to the hell we are still struggling to be respected.Leviticus 18:22-23 you shall not lie with a male as a women. It is an abomination. Nor shall you mate with any animals, to defile yourself with it. It is a preversion.So I choose not to entertain that lifestyle. You can call me and the california yes on prop 8 whatever you choose that is your right. But, just know that everything the world offers even as a heterosexual one does not have to except!.Harassing the hetero community is surely not a way to win prop8 any time soon. I feel that miss california was a victim of hate for her rights and truth to just say no!. So that is just it, remember jesus spoke out against wordly things that god did not approve of and he found himself very unpopular so much that he died for all of us!. God loves all of his children whom ever they are and whatever they decide on their life.But? like a parent he does not at all have to approve.

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  3.   FearlessCrusader says:
    Posted: 07 Jun 09

    Fkoi, how about taking your own advice? I did not say that Laugh Sailor was hating on anyone as you claim. I was objecting to his using Girlstar7's post as an excuse to go off on a tirade about "Politics of Hate", a term that doesn't even make much sense, and then go on to talk about "hatred of homosexuals". Now, if you will also re-read Girlstar7's post, you will have to agree with me that his response was NOT logically based on hers and was entirely uncalled for. I don't think anyone here has used the words "hate" and 'hatred" as much as he did in that one post. Hate is not the issue here, and it is entirely inappropriate to subvert the real issues by using hate as a red herring.

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  4.   Girlstar7 says:
    Posted: 07 Jun 09

    To Kristent: First off! If you take God out of the political system you might as well remove him from creation and any exsistence. That is never going to possiable!. Second I feel strongly on the fact that our young people are being brain washed by the call of an unnatural spirit to act believe that this kind of lifestyle is conded by God. No countrey in the world condones or approves of this lifestyle under any circumstances!. And to insult the harsh and brutal treatment of my ancestors, who did not ask to be in America as free labor and treated so much worse than farm animals,is a disgusting insult! and if you or whom ever want to support gay rights, so be it!.If they want the hetero community to feel compassion for them, they better show some for us! When we disagree don't harass us and whine and be hateful and evil like they did to Miss California. That is the result of yes on prop 8 again!..

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  5.   firecatluv says:
    Posted: 07 Jun 09

    Ria, no worries! The tides of change are coming. This is a progressive country and as long as those who are on the side of civil rights continues to hold strong, this too will pass. As for all the rest of the “so called” Christians (especially my fellow ladies) do we really want to go back to the biblical definition of marriage? You know the one where a man can have a multitude of wives and concubines on the side? Or is we just using the definition that we want to use when it comes to us, and another when it comes to people that are different form us? The bible has been used by to oppress, cultures, minorities and women throughout the ages. People are known for cherry picking scriptures and forgetting the whole “love your brother”, or “judge not or ye shall be judge bit.” Is it any wonder that Jesus said that not everyone who calls his name shall find his way into heaven? It seems people have lost empathy when it comes to those that are different. You don't like gay marriage, fine. Plenty of people don't like interracial marriages either. Does that give you the right to take that from someone else? Nope. Cuz what you believe has nothing to do with what someone else, and if you live in America, you have no excuse. Since Loving vs Virgina, marriage has been determined to be a right, and to prohibit that right to fellow americans is nothing but biotry at its finest. "But I'm not a biogot, I just believe . . . blah blah blah" You don't want to be called a bigot, then my God, quit acting like one!

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  6.   whurr says:
    Posted: 06 Jun 09

    I would like to quote the comment from XISTENTIAL: 'Try using MerriamWebster.com if you don’t know or are unsure. Putting bad grammar out there is not cool' Thanks for your comment. You obviously needed to clarify the difference between 'right and 'rite'. Obviously, by your own definition, your blog post is very uncool. I am going by your own definition of what makes a blog post 'not cool'. Within your post, you actually put commas between subjects and predicates. You have countless spelling mistakes. You even use clauses as complete sentences. Before you criticize others about their writing style, make sure that you show your grammatically perfect side. We wouldn't want to offend your 'legal' side because we all love when someone focuses on grammar in blogs.

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  7.   homesteader says:
    Posted: 05 Jun 09

    laugh_sailor ; positive thinking / when under alot os Stress from lifes many problems , it is always at the top of my thought paterns . Alas we all live in different situations in our daily lives as much as we are all different in our needs to be productive Happy citizens . The stealing of others possessions did not stop after Catholic believing Spanish invaders of the new world . I once read in the far East [ that they would cut off a persons hand legally in other gov'ts for stealing ] . In the United States gov't , our representatives voted themselves high wages and this carries on into their Retirement or even if they fail to achieve re-election . Where may I ask ? do poor people turn when their right to Life , Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness has been Denied by those elected to Protect these God given Rights ? All people being born equal have an equal opportunity to the Rite of Marriage to Whom ever they Choose , Guaranteed by Our Bill of Rights . I know that it is Difficult and costly / but if you wish to marry someone that local law says is illegal . I will suggest traveling to a State that has made it Legal / get married , go home and with thje proper Document inhand Demand Your Rights to benefits as a Family Unit . Where in the United States you married should not be able to be Denied in any other State by Law of Our Country . People have been Married on Cruise ships by their Captains and upon arriving at home ports are recognized as Legal . Do Cruise ships have any law against marriage of Gay persons ? Mississippi River night cruises or my Dream of Restoring Our Vows on a Columbia riverboat cruise at a later date in time . Come on down lottery numbers !!!

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  8.   homesteader says:
    Posted: 05 Jun 09

    In my own defence ; I have been using multiple posts / because of my ignorance in typing [ not knowing how to form paragraphs WITH PROPER SPACING for my seperate thoughts ]. Hence a different post for a different thought . Until I met my wife , who showed me how to access many gov't supplied help items . kristent ; Thank you for bringing the ADA & TFEEOL to my eyes . Alas these where not known to me when I needed them . People not knowing where to turn , when confronted by lifes many problems . Then , there are people as myself / who once read a Joke - offered daily online and felt free to spread it to others in my thoughts [ slightly revised by me ]- not really thinking that it would hurt others feelings . Alas I do vote every election / and firmly Believe in Freedom of Choice for All citizens of Our country . My father fought for that Right for us in WW2 . May God Bless him in his spot in a National Cemetary on this personal Holiday of my 61 st birthday . Amen [ Please , forgive my tears as I write ]

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  9.   homesteader says:
    Posted: 05 Jun 09

    kristent ; I apologize , even I read incorrectly / misinterpret ideas in front of me . My stance on Gay lifestyle is freedom of choice . Thank you for taking the time being patient , so I could understand what you are saying .

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  10.   homesteader says:
    Posted: 04 Jun 09

    hazelpride ; I stated " All " Persons that , I have met have been shown the utmost Respect from Me . Fact ; We were all born naked . Continuously using Jesus Christs name as a crutch in statements to Justify one opinions would seem proper to me if one could Quote " his exact words " on this topic . Anything else is Opinion .

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  11.   laugh_sailor says:
    Posted: 04 Jun 09

    Hazelpride - Thank you for your open mind in discussing this and more importantly, in introspection - The more we honestly look within ourselves, recognize and change things we need to, the happier and more fulfilled we make our lives. I think a great way of balancing personal beliefs and societal respect is Jazz70's earlier post here: "This is a tuff one for me! I too believe a marriage is between a man and a woman…that’s God’s word. I try very hard to live by God’s word but would never impose my view point on anyone else. I really don’t know what the right solution is but may God bless the gay community." She's got it exactly: Living her life personally as her belief system dictates, taking pride in her empathy of others, understanding that it takes all types to make our society and respect in their living their lives fully as well. Live and let live. In this case, it means let others marry. You'd be awfully offended if someone wouldn't let you marry, wouldn't you? I bet it would be terrible and would eat at you endlessly. There's something else at work, as well - The power of positive thinking. By thinking generously and kindly of others, even if they live lives different than we would personally like, we have enriched our own lives so much more than the effort we've given. The dark side of this is miring our lives in hatred and making ourselves wretched. Do you think the Spanish inquisitors were fundamentally happy and blissfully content? They were utterly convinced of their biblical and Catholic duty torture people to death and steal their possessions. This shows how it's important to question hateful advice and actions. If everyone did, militant jihadism wouldn't be a problem - It starts with little things. Finally, I am as supportive of your fundamental human right to live your life as you see fit, as I am of gays. I am so grateful we live in a society that protects and even celebrates your ability to worship and live your life fully. We all live best, respectfully. Join me in extending this welcome to others, please. It's pretty much the message of the ACLU. FearlessCrusader - Kindly carefully re-read my posts: You didn't get them at all.

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  12.   fkoi says:
    Posted: 04 Jun 09

    Oh this topic has the bees buzzin' doesn't it? Mr. FearlessCrusader, it would be a good idea to read posts carefully before you comment on them. Mr. Laugh_sailor didn't "hate" on anyone. He was respectful and thoughtful of Ms. Girlstar7, Ms. Hazelpride and even of Mr. Thick_lover. If you think he did, and this is not "hating" either, you have misread. Paragraphs are used to separate thoughts in the English language, as are other forms of punctuation. Laugh_sailor made appropriate use of them. Pointing out where (and this is a new paragraph beginning a new thought) one disagrees with someone or even where they are misinformed and incorrect is not "hating" on them. And pointing out bigotry is not "hating" either. And "hating on" someone is not even hate. Hate is "intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury" according to the primary definition in Merriam-Webster. Hate is when you take a bat to someone who has been born with different sexual preferences, gender or skin colour just because of their difference. There is a name for it. It is called a hate crime. In a country where separation of church and state is one of the basic tenets of and reasons why we are here, there is a lot of God talk creeping into a political issue. It doesn't matter what you believe. You can opt to belong to a church that doesn't allow gay marriage. But if you vote against someone's right to that rite in a venue that has nothing to do with your church you are voting for prejudice. Everyone has the right to love another adult and the rights given to a formal declaration of that love, even if you believe that choosing a partner of the same sex condemns them to eternal damnation. Save their souls as best you can but don't mix your religious beliefs into government.

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  13.   kristent says:
    Posted: 03 Jun 09

    homesteader I do not express bigotry of others. It is no surprise to anyone that there are people in this world who make bricks look smart. I have taken more than enough time to read your posts. As a physically disabled person you do have a group to assist your minority. You have a law; the Americans with Disabilities Act. The Federal Equal Employment Opportunity Laws protect you. When you go to a job interview you know it is illegal for you to be discriminated against based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, and DISABILITY STATUS. I have been fired because my employer found out I was in a relationship with another woman. I have had friends have their children taken away from them and custody given to the abusive ex husband because they were in a lesbian relationship and the judge was homophobic. If I end up making a life with a woman as my partner, I still intend to have children. I would very much love to someday use a sperm donor to fertilize a partner's egg and have it implanted in my uterus. Before you can criticize that idea of parenthood, let me point out that IVF, surrogacy, and sperm donation are all widely used practices for straight couples who have difficulty conceiving independently. The fact that your house was vandalized repeatedly is certainly a vicious crime, and regrettable. It is unfortunate that you have been carrying around "senseless pain" for 41 years, BUT BOTH OF THOSE FACTS ARE STILL IRRELEVANT TO THE CONVERSATION AT HAND. Your own unrelated struggles in life do not excuse your choice of words or your defense of your own disparaging comments. Justifying yourself in this is tantamount to using the word n*gger to refer to black people and then saying it is okay because you support the civil rights movement. Everyone else in this discussion has their own opinion and has been able to present it without villainizing comparisons. *And congratulations to New Hampshire for becoming the sixth state to protect the rights of ALL its residents to get married.*

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  14.   homesteader says:
    Posted: 03 Jun 09

    thick_lover ; Ria's topic was written as " rite " not " right " and she was totally correct in the spelling of the word as per the topic she intended to bring forth for discussion .

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  15.   hazelpride says:
    Posted: 03 Jun 09

    I am sorry Laugh_sailor, I am sure, I am allowed to exercise my beliefs even though to some they might seem misguided, even within some christian sectors. I think you are open minded person, good for you, maybe with time I will reach the same understanding as you. As, homesteader said most of these people are very nice people and I have seen it first hand but does not convince me to shake my beliefs, maybe I need to be educated more on the subject lol.

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  16.   homesteader says:
    Posted: 03 Jun 09

    kristent ; Maybe if you were to take the time to comprehend what I write and did not ignore , you would not be classifing good people as " Village Idiots " . This shows your Bigotry of others .

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  17.   homesteader says:
    Posted: 03 Jun 09

    Being part of a far smaller Minority Group " the physically Disabled " who have been continually Victims of persecution and injustice in life without a Doubt . I have visited Descrimination daily in my life . With no Group to assist such a small minority No one ever fought for me / save myself . I was born to a family with a father who beat my mother repeatedly , yet never saw any help for her . Judging Gays is Gods job in the end . The many hundreds that I have met always treated me as a Good person as I RESPECTED them in return in personal conversations . I speak of what I have seen with my own eyes / Knot that which I read and hear in the Media . The Bill of Rights also was written for the severely Disabled .

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  18.   FearlessCrusader says:
    Posted: 03 Jun 09

    Girlstar7, your comments were thoughtful and to the point. It was terribly unfair of Laugh Sailor to use your post as an excuse to condemn all who do not agree with him as being haters, especially after you stated that you do not hate the gay community and in fact much hate is directed against anyone who dares to differ with them.

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  19.   laugh_sailor says:
    Posted: 03 Jun 09

    hazelpride - Sorry my posts are long. Please check out our Constitution, Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights to see for yourself how our laws exist to protect our fundamental rights, which are intrinsic in each of us as worthwhile people. It's why God loves every one of us and why we don't get to vote for our personal worth. Thank you, fkoi, for your kindness. I think you have a good point about bigots ostentatiously hiding behind morality and your comments about Christlike thought and behavior are right on target. It's the small steps we take daily that determine our worth - How do we treat those who are at a disadvantage? For those preaching hate (Yes, gay-bashing is hate.) in the name of Christ - (1) Get real. That's about as Satanic as I can imagine. If you really have to hate, take my mother's advice: "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all." (2) Identify with the many wonderful Christian aspects, instead. (3) Get perspective - There's a lot more pressing problems in our world to worry about: Many that organized religion can really help to address, such as schools, hospitals, shelters for battered women, vaccinations for children, etc. (4) Understand that there are many Christian sects and many of these do not teach gay-bashing: It's particularly un-Christian thought and behavior. (5) Denying fundamental rights to people is bullying. (6) Toning down hateful speech is a good first step but that and disclaimers with hateful speech still suck and don't fool anyone, just as saying "I love you" and then hitting someone doesn't fool anyone, either. You know that song: R-E-S-P-E-C-T, Tell me what it means to me... Why am I (a completely heterosexual person) advocating so forcefully for gays, especially when I'd so much rather spend an evening writing self-help articles about sailing? I can't stand bullies. It's also important for someone to stand squarely against injustice: When publicly shamed, people tend to back away from bad behaviors. We get into really horrible trouble when we do not stand up for minorities - Letting hate grow to be the norm is how lynchings come to be. It's how The Holocaust and genocide in Rwanda and currently in Sudan started. Hate crimes and hateful attitudes also spill from one group to another, further worsening our quality of life. I don't think we'll have mass lynchings of gays in the U.S. because there are enough people who won't allow that. There are far too many cases of gay-bashings, though (Both verbal and physical abuse). It's wrong and I don't condone it. Further, we have a special place here in welcoming and being open to others - Let's not spoil this kind, accepting place, please. There's two reasons I can see for this behavior: Groupthink, in which one values their group so much that they suppress their own morality when they think the group will value a choice they don't approve. This helps the person to think they are seen as belonging because they are parroting what they think the group will approve. One of the most famous examples of this was the Bay of Pigs fiasco, which almost started a nuclear war - No single person on either side wanted to escalate the standoff but each person thought so highly of their group and thought that the group decision would be to escalate militarily, so each person voted to do what every one of them later said they personally thought was immoral and desperately did not want to, just to be seen as loyal to the group. Strong personal senses of loyalty and denial also helps mightily in groupthink. The other thing I see happening is lack of awareness of how many small bigoted acts and attitudes add up to big problems in our society in general. A number of mean and disparaging comments over time really do substantially worsen our lives generally. What saddens me here is people who have been victimized by discrimination and hate crimes acting just as badly towards others. There's always an excuse: Just as a wife-beater says "She made me hit her," they say "Gays choose immoral behavior so I can deny them full, normal lives." It's willfully ignorant, self-deceiving, just plain insulting and it doesn't fool me or anyone else for an instant. I'm sorry to have to lecture like this. It's very distasteful to me. I'd so much rather share happy, fun times. I'm sure we all would, so as Rodney King said "Can't we all get along?"

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  20.   homesteader says:
    Posted: 03 Jun 09

    After driving cross-country for 28 days , I would come home for a 5 or 6 day break . With my house illegally entered . My refridgerator would have been unpluged and it would take me two days to clean the rotten food every month . I would call Sears repair and the technician who came out ten mouths in a row would always tell me nothing was wrong with my unit .

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  21.   homesteader says:
    Posted: 03 Jun 09

    Correction ; 41 years , because the last time he came and tried to force his way into Our house my new wife called 911 and having a witness finally - he was charged with Criminal Trespass and had to pay a $1,500.00 fine .

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  22.   homesteader says:
    Posted: 03 Jun 09

    Having to live life in todays world , becoming Disabled at a young age and sleeping with hunger many nights in my young years , I saw how cruel people can be alas I always obeyed the Law and spoke Honestly . Becoming Disabled a second time with a Massive heart attack . Brought me to have my life threatened several times / even to the point of someone walking into my house uninvited / while I sat at my desk and them grabbing me by the throat and saying " I am going to Kill you muther f-cker " and my voicebox having already been broken in 1966 . At that time stealing $50.00 from me . Sheriff came by the house and told me it was my word against his - nothing could be done , Breaking into my house repeatedly vandelizing and destroying many things when I went to town on the first to purchase groceries . Came home to a locked gate and FIRE was written across my front door . kristent , I did not intend to Offend you alas to walk in my shoes , was to carry a great deal of senseless pain for the last 43 years .

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  23.   homesteader says:
    Posted: 03 Jun 09

    All I stated was a " Fact " that once you have been a suicide bomber , you shall never have any more children to carry on your killing spree and two people of the same sex who marry will never bring children into this world from their joining . Because it takes a Woman and a Man to procreate . Gay people in my past years have always been and always will be productive citizens . Also Jesus Christ in his own time was an Insurgant against the Ruling power of where he lived and was tried and convicted . If you gather 13 members in a group and decide to overthrow our gov't . Someone is going to prison . God made Jesus as an example to teach people what happens from doing wrong in life . God also gave us the Devil to cover his own evil .

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  24.   starthai says:
    Posted: 03 Jun 09

    So I guess procreation does not matter.

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  25.   hazelpride says:
    Posted: 02 Jun 09

    I totally agree with Thick lover, the people have spoken, and our rights are determined by a democratic choice. No offence to the gay community, I totally have nothing against them, and I feel I am very tolerant, and what they do is their business. I just do not share their understanding, because mine is derived from a christian background that condone this type of union.

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  26.   kristent says:
    Posted: 02 Jun 09

    Homesteader I have to say that you may have the right to you opinion but maybe you shouldn't post it so much. I have been trying very hard to ignore your multiple and usually senseless posts for weeks now, but you have crossed a line. There is nothing about gay/lesbian people that could even remotely be used to compare them to suicide bombers. And on behalf of all LGBT people I am EXTREMELY OFFENDED. Gay/lesbian people are just people; some are peaceful and some are aggressive, some are intelligent and some are the village idiot, and every possible place in between. To compare all of these people to suicide bombers--and on a false premise to begin with--is libelous misrepresentation. Get your head out of your ass before someone sues it off.

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  27.   homesteader says:
    Posted: 02 Jun 09

    And I disagree with the statement that it is a lie "Gay is a choice " / as I Believe who one has sex with would be Mutual Consent .

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  28.   fkoi says:
    Posted: 02 Jun 09

    Laugh_sailor, your last two comments were among the best analyses/depictions of bigotry I can remember. Keep pitching, Brother. Don't the B.S. get through. It is unfortunate that as far as gays go, you are preaching to the choir. Those who are not homophobic see a thousand reasons not to be. Those who are tend to have a mind closed so tight on the subject that nothing can penetrate. Even so, if you reach one bigoted mind, then you have done a lot. An important truth is that bigotry is bigotry. It serves no good purpose to say that my suffering at the hands of bigots is worse than yours, therefore yours isn't suffering. Of course it doesn't serve to say that all suffering has been equal either. For some reason, the bigot that gets my goat the most is the Bible toting bigot, who tosses spears exclusion and uses the good book as a shield. It's always pickers and choosers who have the most hate. The guy working on his third divorce or with three babies by three different women, none of them a wife. The woman working on a plate of shrimp as she heads to work on Sunday. If you ask what would Jesus do and you were honest about it, you would have to find it in your heart to love your neighbor as yourself, no matter what! Oh yeah, then there's that little thing about casting the first stone.

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  29.   homesteader says:
    Posted: 02 Jun 09

    I / myself in the Transportation industry met thousands of people and Found that by Respecting each and all . Life flowed with an even current and was so much easier . When we speak of Gays / we never will know who they are unless they have the Desire to tell . They still are just good people same as I .

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  30.   homesteader says:
    Posted: 02 Jun 09

    laugh_sailor ; good comments , 2x + y = z in Mathematical terms / A little off topic . After reading about A & B in your comment . I felt like a small amount of shared learning myself . Fact ; Gays are similar to suicide bombers - as they will never reproduce . Our United States of America , was built on Freedom of Choice . Here's hoping that idea never changes .

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  31.   laugh_sailor says:
    Posted: 02 Jun 09

    Please forgive the typo: "This is a fundamental principal in our Constitution" should have been "This is a fundamental principle in our Constitution." Thanks!

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  32.   laugh_sailor says:
    Posted: 02 Jun 09

    thick_lover - Our rights are NOT derived from any democratic process. They are recognized as inherent to us as not merely members of civilized society but more fundamentally as people, with intrinsic worth. Our laws protect our fundamental rights - They do not create them. Philosophically, the most direct influence in this case is Thomas Locke. Our governmental origins plainly state this in the opening statement of our Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Democratic processes determine the best ways to protect our rights, though, as stated clearly in the next phrase: "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." This is a fundamental principal in our Constitution, Bill of Rights and therefore throughout our law, as well. Wikipedia has an excellent discussion of these three fundamental documents of our government (You might want to start with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence ): Declaration of Independence, Constitution and Bill of Rights. For further understanding, The Federalist Papers are fascinating reading. I hope this helps your understanding of the philosophical core of our law and government and you find it as inspiring as I do.

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  33.   thick_lover says:
    Posted: 01 Jun 09

    First of all, it is not a right, despite Ria's insistance. Secondly, our rights are determined by a democratic process. The people have spoken.

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  34.   laugh_sailor says:
    Posted: 01 Jun 09

    Girlstar7 - Thank you for your honest opinions. Please be open to my rebuttal, which is kindly and respectfully meant. I strongly feel this is a pointless, unnecessary conflict that greatly damages our society. One of the founding principles of our country (USA) is tolerance. Sadly, we've had to struggle with that concept. Minorities (and yes, gay is a minority, just as black is) are generally treated worse in just about any way you can measure and many that can't, to varying degrees. As you probably know (being a mother) babies have no concept of discrimination - They have to be taught that. Proof is that babies and toddlers will happily play with each other, regardless of the number of limbs they have, what color their skin is, etc. My bachelor's degree is Political Science and my honors thesis was on non-violent conflict resolution, so I'm not a stranger to this subject. One way discrimination is perpetuated is through "The Politics of Hate." This works as follows: (1) You and I are members of Group A. (either fact or desire to be part of that group) (2) Group A is better than Group B. (ego boosting reason to identify with Group A) (3) Group B is different. (If there's not a difference, who cares what group you're in?) (4) Group B is morally bad. (Fear of association with Group B) You can find examples of The Politics of Hate in many places but talk radio and evangelistic religion are two of the most common and superficial in this, in the United States, so this hateful speech is easy to spot those mediums. The Politics of Hate has the following characteristics: (1) It can only exist in an atmosphere of ignorance of fact. (2) It thrives in extremities, such as jihadism, gay bashing, racism, etc. It's important to be factual and respectful when dealing with rumors (urban myths) planted by hateful people and groups. Examples of these lies are: * Obama is a militant jihadist. * Blacks are a different species than whites. * Gay is a choice. "A fanatic redoubles his efforts when he has forgotten his aims." - Santiago What's the goal of hatred of homosexuals? I think it's a combination of fears of the unknown and weak ego: The person bashing gays usually does not have close mainstream gay friends and with no personal knowledge to refute hateful rumors, is trapped by the process outlined above into believing them. The person may have doubts of self, a child, friend, etc. and worry about "turning gay." FACTS: * The reason gays "come out of the closet" is that they can not live with the lie of pretending to be straight any more. This is an indication of how strongly they are ostracized. Imagine how you would feel if you had to pretend to be gay, in a gay society but were really straight. It would gross me out - Think about how they feel! * "Turning gay" is an urban legend. Our brain chemistry determines our sexual preference and that's something we're born with. Gays have substantial and specific physical differences in their brains that determine their sexual preferences. * "Gay lifestyle" is a label homophobes use to falsely label sexual orientation as a choice. It's a prime example of The Politics of Hate in action. * "Natural law of heterosexuality" Is another false label. All mammals have gay populations and there are many properly-conducted scientific studies validated by mainstream, respected organizations to prove this. * "If I only talk hatefully, I have no responsibility for a hate crime." Legally, you're on the road to "Inciting a riot." We are responsible for our actions and words. Everything we say and do contributes to our society. Do you want a hateful society like the Taliban? No? Well, stop hating! * It is impossible to be blissfully, peacefully happy and hateful. Make your choice and live it. People are born straight, bisexual or gay. We live in a heterosexual society and the small minority of gays is heavily ostracized: Think of it like being a black walking by yourself downtown in the early 1900s, in various places. You'd be ok in some places and lynched in others. You'd never, though, be unaware of your vulnerability or potential hostility of others. The similarity of abuse in both cases is horrifyingly startling. One of the most frightening things about this behavior is that people can think of themselves as morally good people while at the same time having absolutely immoral hatreds. The weak points of these hatreds are: (1) Facts. (2) Sympathy. (3) Pride of membership in a tolerant society. (4) Understanding that citizenship means supporting other good citizens and their differences in our society even if they are not lives we would personally want. We have many motivations for the groups we identify with - Identification with being a Christian is a fundamentally personal choice and can have totally contradictory meanings - My mother's an example of one, in that she lives her life consciously in the way Christ would be personally proud of her to live it. Hate simply isn't in her vocabulary. Can you possibly imagine Christ bashing gays? If you can, try reading about his life and what he was about The New Testament. One of the largest Christian denominations until very recently interpreted the Bible as declaring blacks' skin color as "The mark of Cain" and therefore labeling blacks as "Spawns of Satan." Should I spread racist, hate-filled speech because of that? I could hide my actions by claiming I am just being a good Christian and I'm sure I could find religious authority to sanction my actions. I wouldn't be responsible for my hateful speech and actions then, would I? It's easy to be judgmental about people but really, what's the point? Doing so only makes everyone, especially the person who's so critical, unhappy. This is what the founders of The United States of America understood when they drew up our Constitution and Bill of Rights so carefully and yes, so beautifully.

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  35.   kristent says:
    Posted: 01 Jun 09

    Girlstar, I know you have a right to your opinion, and therefore I will not rebut your argument on the morality of being gay. For the record I will say that being gay/lesbian/bisexual is no more a choice than you being black, but, it really is irrelevant. You say that the reason you feel that gay couples should not get married is that it violates "the naturalness of God's law and morality". That may well be a reason for your church to refuse to perform a wedding for a gay couple, but has no relevance in the area of law. Our country has had a long standing distaste for the mixing of religion and government. We do not endorse the establishment of a national religion, and prohibiting a couple from marrying because of a religious/faith based objection would be giving favor to the religion whose standards deny the couple those rights. We also cannot force any religious institution to perform a wedding ceremony for a gay/lesbian couple for the same reason. The gay and lesbian community is fighting for the right to enter into a marriage contract under the eyes of the law. It is a contract that provides them and any of their dependents the same legal protections and obligations that a straight couple receives, and reaffirms their status as a couple for themselves and their loved ones. The ramifications you would feel, Girlstar, if a gay couple decided to get married, are nonexistent. Just as you are not impacted by any other random straight couple that decides to marry. I am sure that no matter which side of this issue a person falls on, they wish that everyone else would feel exactly the same as they do. However, we are a vast nation with widely divergent opinions on religion, morals, and social justice. The Constitution and the US government have provided a framework of laws giving all of our citizens the same rights, and while we live here, neither of our opinions on religion or morality should have an undue negative effect on how the other lives his/her life. ~maximum respect

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  36.   salsera77 says:
    Posted: 01 Jun 09

    Girlstar7, I'll second your emotion. I’m a Christian too. I am no hater of gay people or anyone and if they want to live that lifestyle so be it. I will be kind to them but I will not consort with them just be kind to me. However that being said, I am bone weary of the gay community trying so badly to lump the passing of interracial legislation in with their own plight and also comparing themselves to that of being black. Their plight has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with being black or interracial relationships/marriage. It’s as if they need support/company so badly that they’re grabbing at any idea they can find for support. Sorry, but being black or interracial relationships are not something for gay people to use as justifications. Their circumstance is a totally different entity all unto itself and I don’t like the fact that they want to ride on coattails where they don’t belong. You can’t rub the black off you’re skin or out of your DNA and there are interracial relationships in the good book. Also, I agree there’s a kind of reverse discrimination going on when someone speaks their mind like Ms. California did. It’s as if that Hilton guy couldn’t wait to flog her in public. Not everyone has to agree with Hilton and no surprise, Donald Trump kept her.

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  37.   fkoi says:
    Posted: 01 Jun 09

    Laugh_sailor, good catch. I have long been considered a master punster (or as a grand server of corn depending on one's perspective) but I agreed with Ms. Xistential at first. Sadly, I am so used to bad spelling/grammar/usage in general and on the Web in particular that I have to pick my battles or I'd be proofreading full time for those who should know better (or who could hire me, as that is part of my professional skill set). I chose not to pick this battle with Ria. I'm glad I didn't now! Plays on words in headlines is a longstanding tradition. Without it, in New York, the "Daily News" and the "Post" would be out of business. The upside of that possible turn of events is a topic for another time and place. As it is, kudos, Ria. It was a brilliant use of homophonic humour about a homophobic historic event. If you didn't intend it that way, keep it under your hat.

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  38.   Girlstar7 says:
    Posted: 31 May 09

    I personally don't feel it is a sad day in america that prop 8 did not pass. And this is sad to see many of our young people choosing that lifestyle. If they only knew that it will entail a lot more than the physical side of it.It rips your soul to pieces and honestly, even though I may get nailed for these comments.But? we're all adults and just because I don't agree does not make me evil or with no compassion. I just feel that that life style is not good for any man, less knowing our children. It takes away your spiritual closeness with God in my opinion. I think that it was very cruel for society to "HATE" Miss California.She does not have to agree and she should not have been harassed and done an evil revengfull dis- service. You don't have to agree people!, that does not mean you are evil or going to engage in hateful acts towards someone you disagree with. In the heterosexual community we too are far from perfect!. But? I feel at least we are following the natural law to some degree. Does that mean the things of lust that we do is good and pleasing to God.. No!. So, we all need to get it together for real. Say what you want about me or my comment, we are adults and this is free speech in America...

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  39.   Girlstar7 says:
    Posted: 31 May 09

    I must say that when I heard the prop 8 bill did not pass last november, and marriage should be only between a man and woman I agreed.And hearing very recent that it still did not pass, is good news. I do not hate the gay community at all!.If they choose to be together in their bedroom so be it. I as a christian woman must stand up for the naturalness of God's law and morality. And I am so tired of the disrespect that the homosexual community tries to compare their injustice to the injustice of African Americans. Could some one please let them know, you can never compare a "choice" of sexual preference to a people who had no choice to be black and totally treated worse than farm animals. That is an insult and a true shame to compare the historical injustice to people that have a choice to be gay. Stop it!!

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  40.   CanadianGC says:
    Posted: 31 May 09

    As laugh_sailor mentioned the California Supreme court simply upheld what was an freely voted for proposition. I learn towards the whole concept of same-sex marriage as simply symbolic of being accepeted by society. Same-sex couples can get married anytime they want, the marriage is simple not recognized by various religious and government instituitons. If same-sex couples have the same rights and acesses to goverment and legal benefits as hetrosexual couples, then there really should be no issue. If your marrying someone, hopefuly the reason your doing so is because you are making a life long commitment to the other person and whether it is recognize by the courts or anyone else, shouldn't make any difference.

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  41.   homesteader says:
    Posted: 31 May 09

    Laws are overturned .

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  42.   homesteader says:
    Posted: 31 May 09

    Which is also what was denied . Thank you Ria .

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  43.   homesteader says:
    Posted: 31 May 09

    People on this site , really come to meet others . P.S. Sorry if I offend , my daughter is the English teacher in our family . Rite - in my eyes refering to the ceremony of marriage . Which is what I understood from the Blog topic .

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  44.   homesteader says:
    Posted: 31 May 09

    I do intend to be critical ; The proper sentence in my educational training , would have been written - " Putting bad grammer out there is not cool and deflates the message " is Proper . xistentail . Thank you . Myself sometimes , I spell incorrectly , type with error or am repeatative in my words . I know not much about the legal profession , alas are you able to parallel park a W900L Kenworth tractor with 53' trailer attached the first time as I am able to ? You did say that even with maybe a wrong spelling ,that you understood what was written .

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  45.   laugh_sailor says:
    Posted: 31 May 09

    xistential, Please don't come down on Ria for using "rite" instead of "right." I found it amusing. After all, a wedding is a social rite of passage and when sanctioned by the state, literally both a civil right and a civil rite. Aren't we a delightfully primitive society, to even have this conversation of who gets the benefits of this rite? Hand me my spear - I'm off to battle the neighbors. Can't stand people who put toilet paper in the dispenser the wrong way.

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  46.   laugh_sailor says:
    Posted: 30 May 09

    The decision was to uphold the legitimacy of Proposition 8 as a modification to California State Constitution, rather than overturn it as a revision, which would have required a 2/3 vote in the state legislature. While I don't agree with this decision (I think it's a revision of the state constitution, which guarantees equal protection.), the court took pains to say that other challenges to Proposition 8 may still be heard and it's bound to be challenged soon: This challenge was just the easiest and most direct to make. The current situation is ridiculous and the court is well aware that the position of having tens of thousands of legally-married gay couples while at the same time stating that others can't marry now because it's illegal can not stand as law. This in itself makes for a much stronger rebuttal to Proposition 8 and similar ballot measures. Kudos to Party1 for being such an open-minded citizen in supporting the rights of a group he does not identify with!

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  47.   fkoi says:
    Posted: 30 May 09

    I think it was a perfect storm that Proposition 8 in California was brought to a vote at the same time that Barack Obama was running for President. McCain and the weather lady didn't really have a chance in that election, especially after the economy collapsed under Bush's deregulation of his low friends in high places. Unfortunately Prop 8 was already on the ballot and hindsight is always pretty keen. The effect though was that the homophobic forces had the opportunity to throw their full weight behind support for Prop 8. They were also blessed by the wording. "No" on Prop 8 meant "Yes" on not banning same sex marriage. It confused me, and I'm not that easily confused. Homophobes basically got to vote "Yes, I'm against gay rights," however they coloured it to rationalize their views. For the rest of us, it was not intuitive to vote "No, I'm in favor of allowing individuals to choose whom they wish to marry." In light of the electorate's vote, the Supreme Court of California had no choice but to support the law. They may already have been a little out of line in putting their own beliefs ahead of judging the law as it stood and ironically that decision probably gave firepower to the Yes on 8 forces. I'm not a legal scholar so I may be wrong in my interpretation. One thing I am sure about though: It will come to pass that same sex marriage will be sanctioned in the near future, not just in California but across the country, just as Black/White marriages, once anathema to many of the same individuals who attacked in favor of Prop 8, are now supported.

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  48.   xistential says:
    Posted: 30 May 09

    Also, the focus on morality should not and cannot be used as a political paperweight. I am tired of being beat over the head about this issue. Although I am a black woman, I can't stand it when the issue is intertwined with black struggle in this contry. Race is immutable. A person's physical looks are the first thing people see. One's sexual prefernce is not something anyone can judge by looking at them (usually). If I can be made to understand the correlation between black struggle and homosexuals' marriage rights, then maybe I will change my mind about my stance. Homosexuality is not new. And there are bigger problems to deal with other than debating this issue, particularly: "education" "recession" "unemployment" "nulcear armns proliferation" "N. Korea" I can go on. I care about people as people. I treat them with the respect I expect. But to close out, you cannot force this country (which is as progressive as can be on most other topics, but Victorian as HELL when it comes to discussing SEX, while at the same time the watchdogs sell SEX to the tweens (jonah bros., miley c.) and the rappers and R&B stars sexualize every damn song they make these days (usher) AND the Christian COnservative right have a "DO LIKE I SAY MENTALITY" and continue to cover up indiscretions of their "Family Values" bandleaders who frequently use prostitutes (hey Dave) and abuse prescription drugs (Hey Rush). PHEW! If you love someone, you love someone. There are just as many ALTERNATIVE lifetyle relationships out there as there are people. We all have less idiosyncrasies. Alway, be beautuful everybody.

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  49.   xistential says:
    Posted: 30 May 09

    I am not intending to sound critical, but a little constructive critisism is what people should practice. A "right" is guaranteed by the constitution is a "Civil Right!" Please edit this entry. If you are going to post publicly, please make sure that you distinguish the homonyms "right" vs. "rite". Try using MerriamWebster.com if you don't know or are unsure. Putting bad grammar out there is not cool, and deflates the message you are putting out there. Not to mention that if you want the topic taken seriously, the tag line needs to display understanding of the the topic. But, if you are discussing sensitive legal topics, you should take care to illustrate that you know the difference between the two words, by not using the misspelling "rite" (which is something unrelated to a right). Take it from a "legal" person. Fix the tag and instantly be labeled informed and "smart."

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  50.   rarestgold says:
    Posted: 30 May 09

    Personally, I don't believe it's right. It's my religious background that holds me back from shouting yeah go ahead and let them marry but, it's also my religious background that says that all people should have the same rights. I also agree with Party1 that we (the US) treats illegal aliens better than they treat their own citizens. So where do I really stand? - teetering on the fence. Nothing or no one is perfect. No relationship is perfect. Sometimes people stay together, a lot of the time they don't but, doesn't everyone deserve the chance to see if they can make it work?

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